DUST Search - Overwatch Meta vs Dust 514 Meta

xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:

Maken Tosch wrote:

Bright Cloud wrote:

You cant compare Overwatch with dust. Yeah sure they are both FPS games but on Overwatch you have everything unlocked from the get go, on dust however you had to grind for weeks to make significant progress. It is a much more team focused game where in Dust a single guy could carry hard. Besides the only roles in dust where shot' em or heal' em. Overwatch is more complex due to huge amount of abilitys. Tanks in overwatch can block damage for their team where the heavy in dust was just a dude with a bigger gun and more health.

If anything i would compare Dust more towards a game like Battlefield.

Um, I never saw anyone carry a team in Dust. Overwatch, however, there's Pharmercy.

Pharamercy duo is a bit broken on consoles, but still it's not enough to "carry" a team. My german friend here is right: in Overwatch you don't unlock anything, hence you have no real advantage over the opponent. Moreover it's not just a "I aim better than you" game and it's actually not so solo-friendly, especially in competitive. In fact if even one member of your team does not do his job or fail in squad composition, you'll have a hard time.

Think about a squad with no healer: in dust you don't really "need" a determined number of logi to be in the sweet spot, while in Overwatch if you have none or if you have more than 2 you have very little chance to win. Same goes with tanks/heavies: more than 2/less than 1 = bad etc.

The player count is also an important factor: in a 6 v 6 you can make far less mistakes than in a 16 v 16 or even 32 v 32.

This just means that Overwatch is very squad dependent, whatever you choose, while Dust wasn't, and this means that you could "carry" in some ways (even tho I don't believe that you could really "carry" anything even in Dust) if you are a better overall player and if you have those advantages in terms of SP spended in a clever way.

There's no carry, I believe it's actually the opposite: there are people who will make mistakes, and the team that overall makes less mistakes win.

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Maken Tosch DUST University 13781	Posted - 2017.06.21 17:18:00 - [1] - Quote It's really weird seeing the Overwatch community embrace the meta like a really overused meme. What they call the meta we often called it flavor of the month back in the golden days of Dust 514. Here in Dust 514 a lot of us often shunned those like witches in Salem for winning matches using the easiest setups possible. We have seen them all. Cloaky shotgun scouts, double/triple-stacked tanks, redline-loving commando snipers, blue bottle bunnies and OP fisters. We have seen them abuse it all here in Dust because it was just easy to win that way. At least here in Dust we appreciated the specialists because at least they proved to have skill and never backed down from a challenge. But in Overwatch, it's the other way around. You are ostracized for admitting to being a one-trick pony. For ** sake, Mercy mains are heavily criticized and that's before you get to my main (Hanzo). They don't like specialists. They want everyone to get in line and be peer pressured into following the meta (aka flavor of the month) even if the player being pressured in the team is not that good with the hero they are being pressured into using. I didn't see much of this happen even in Dust 514's Factional Warfare. But if you go to Overwatch and go into competitive, chosing Hanzo in there is like running for US President. No one will like you no matter how good you are. To them, teamwork only means switching heroes if they are being countered. To them they don't seem to understand the impact that coordination and communication has. Oh, you're getting pegged by Pharah? Switch to hitscan hero (McCree, Soldier, Widow). Doesn't matter if you have a way to mess up Pharah without having to switch. You MUST switch or else you get reported for throwing the match even though Blizzard specifically states on their reporting system that they will not ban anyone just because they refused to switch out of a specific hero. And it's very toxic over there. If you people though Dust 514 was toxic with all the "harden the ** up" mantra that we constantly chanted throughout the years here, wait until you look at the Overwatch community. It is so toxic I am almost tempted to call the Environmental Protection Agency because I can almost smell the chemicals from way over here. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13784	Posted - 2017.06.21 20:09:00 - [2] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: That's the cultural difference between only caring about easy wins vs wanting to be challenged and suffer in the process of getting your win. Except in Dust 514 often times there will be a lot of back and forth and the match will end closely or at least reasonably. However, Overwatch is much more team dependent since death is valued much higher than in Dust 514. In Dust 514 you can play without regarding your team and do well, so if you have one ding dong on your team it doesn't donk it up for everyone. However, in Overwatch having one incompetent guy on your team means 1/6 of your team is useless. So in Overwatch if you don't work with your team you are done. It's honestly that easy. If one player isn't carrying their own weight your team is handicapped. Matches also tend to be rather short if your team isn't working together, so there's very little time to fix your mistakes. That is very true. Unfortunately a lot of the Overwatch players in the community (possibly vast majority) seem to believe that working together strictly means changing heroes. They want to force you into picking a different character even if doing so will hinder your performance. I have progressively racked up more and more kills per match as Hanzo as I have this regimen about doing 3 quick play matches followed by 1 competitive match. This is to warm me up and try something new before going into competitive. I have also been keeping close to my team pair up with certain heroes that compliment what I stick with. Surprisingly my experience has taught me that the vast majority of the hero lineup in Overwatch can work well with Hanzo and I have learned to overcome my own weaknesses while exploiting the weaknesses of the opponents. So yeah, I carry my own weight and often up up getting silver or gold eliminations recently. Right now there are just too many players that don't know how to use niche heroes well enough and so the community has this very big stigma towards anyone who uses them. At first the stigma was limited to competitive, but now I'm seeing it bleed over to quick play where players start telling me to get off my hero despite my contributions to the team as that hero. It's really selfish for them to try to force others to do something they don't want to do just because they want to win a match. At the end of the day, it's only a game and people paid money to play the game however they want (whether to win or have fun or both). I am not obligated to be jack of all trades in any game. I guess the Overwatch community just doesn't want anyone being a specialist and just wants everyone to follow the flavor of the month. Thankfully a lot of them stayed away from Dust 514. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13784	Posted - 2017.06.21 20:17:00 - [3] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: In Dust 514 you can play without regarding your team and do well, so if you have one ding dong on your team it doesn't donk it up for everyone. H I would dispute. Even one player could change many things like : capturing the homepoint, keeping vehicles off the map, being the most noticeable. Of course there's no point in comparing 6v6 to 16v16, but if you could afford to slack in Dust that meant it wasn't a real battle (just saying). About the community. What is there to expect? A game that can draw in CoD players and such is deemed to be toxic I remember most of my matches having players relaying critical intel to each other about enemy positions which helped a lot of the one-tricks in the team to work effectively. Scouts running around hacking stuff while the enemy if distracted. Sentinels and Commandos working with Repair Logis to push through a point.* etc. * - No one complained about the repair logis. Teamwork and communication has a much greater impact on the match than just simple picks but the Overwatch community refuses to believe that. It's a hopeless cause trying to convince these people. I just do my thing. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13784	Posted - 2017.06.22 16:46:00 - [4] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: Only problem i have with OW balance is that most of the time the answer a to soldier on the enemy team is getting your own soldier LOL. Call of Daddy Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13785	Posted - 2017.06.23 21:46:00 - [5] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: You cant compare Overwatch with dust. Yeah sure they are both FPS games but on Overwatch you have everything unlocked from the get go, on dust however you had to grind for weeks to make significant progress. It is a much more team focused game where in Dust a single guy could carry hard. Besides the only roles in dust where shot' em or heal' em. Overwatch is more complex due to huge amount of abilitys. Tanks in overwatch can block damage for their team where the heavy in dust was just a dude with a bigger gun and more health. If anything i would compare Dust more towards a game like Battlefield. Um, I never saw anyone carry a team in Dust. Overwatch, however, there's Pharmercy. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13785	Posted - 2017.06.24 16:58:00 - [6] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: You cant compare Overwatch with dust. Yeah sure they are both FPS games but on Overwatch you have everything unlocked from the get go, on dust however you had to grind for weeks to make significant progress. It is a much more team focused game where in Dust a single guy could carry hard. Besides the only roles in dust where shot' em or heal' em. Overwatch is more complex due to huge amount of abilitys. Tanks in overwatch can block damage for their team where the heavy in dust was just a dude with a bigger gun and more health. If anything i would compare Dust more towards a game like Battlefield. Um, I never saw anyone carry a team in Dust. Overwatch, however, there's Pharmercy. Pharamercy duo is a bit broken on consoles, but still it's not enough to "carry" a team. My german friend here is right: in Overwatch you don't unlock anything, hence you have no real advantage over the opponent. Moreover it's not just a "I aim better than you" game and it's actually not so solo-friendly, especially in competitive. In fact if even one member of your team does not do his job or fail in squad composition, you'll have a hard time. Think about a squad with no healer: in dust you don't really "need" a determined number of logi to be in the sweet spot, while in Overwatch if you have none or if you have more than 2 you have very little chance to win. Same goes with tanks/heavies: more than 2/less than 1 = bad etc. The player count is also an important factor: in a 6 v 6 you can make far less mistakes than in a 16 v 16 or even 32 v 32. This just means that Overwatch is very squad dependent, whatever you choose, while Dust wasn't, and this means that you could "carry" in some ways (even tho I don't believe that you could really "carry" anything even in Dust) if you are a better overall player and if you have those advantages in terms of SP spended in a clever way. There's no carry, I believe it's actually the opposite: there are people who will make mistakes, and the team that overall makes less mistakes win. You seem to make a good point. But just to remind you that team composition isn't always needed. A few players from the Overwatch community said (though it's extremely rare) they were in a match where their team was so off-meta with a team composition that looked pre-destined to fail from the start but they managed to stomp the opposing team because they knew what they were doing and were coordinating effectively. It's one of those things that are often ignored because there are just way too many players who are not like them and thus people tend to assume that any random player they solo-queue with in competitive doesn't know what they are doing even if they invested over 40 hours with that particular hero. This is very similar to how we generally looked at blueberries in Dust 514 and, in some indirect way, made it feel like Overwatch had a character leveling system. That leveling system was your actual experience-based skill. From the very beginning you are a blueberry in Overwatch and you will go through a lot of rough times trying to get a handle on your hero. But over time you get better and better at using that hero and start developing strategies around it. From play to counter-play which is something the Overwatch community doesn't seem to fully understand. The vast majority of the community thinks teamwork, adapting or countering strictly means "switch your hero." When in reality it's much more than that. When you look at Junkrat vs Pharah you think Pharah wins hands down but people ignore the fact that Pharah is absolute crap inside confined spaces which is where Junkrat thrives. A skilled Junkrat can lure Pharah into those situations. To make this more effective, Junkrat can pair up with other heroes to cover each other's weakness. For example: Winston can hard counter Symmetra and Hanzo. But when Symmetra and Hanzo work together, Winston is as dead as Harambe especially when taking advantage of the limitations of Winston's Tesla Canon and bubble shield. All of this is called counter-play. Where you use the environment and using what the rest of your team has to offer to overcome the disadvantages that you have. Overwatch players in Grandmaster understand this. I have seen godly Genjis and Hanzos (Seagull), Widowmakers so skilled you'd think Deadshot was playing her, Attack Torbjorns and Junkrats that can get under your skin so much you go full tilt, Bastion players can make the Terminator proud. Unfortunately, such skilled players are only welcomed in Grandmaster. Drop below that and you become accused of throwing just for picking a specific hero (actual skills be damned). And believe me I have encountered players online who just didn't give a **** how many hours I invested in my main. He was just bad mouthing me from the beginning of the match and to the end. We could have won that match has he focused all that energy on actually trying to win and working with what's available in the team. But no. He just wasted his time and energy telling me how much I sucked and how I will be reported to Blizzard for throwing which brings me to the biggest irony in Competitive Overwatch. People accuse mains or one-tricks of throwing the match in competitive just for picking a specific hero even though most mains and one-tricks try to win, but then those same people go on comms and say "That's it! If that Widowmaker doesn't switch, I'm going to switch to Junkrat and jump off the cliff the rest of this match! Screw you! We all lost anyways!" <.< Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13786	Posted - 2017.06.24 19:02:00 - [7] - Quote There I am. https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/career/pc/us/GrumpyKitten-115526 SR 1158 Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13787	Posted - 2017.06.24 19:12:00 - [8] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: There I am. https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/career/pc/us/GrumpyKitten-115526 SR 1158 Then, my friend, you are doomed to have ****** teams that won't cooperate. For at least other 1000 SR #BronzoLife Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13787	Posted - 2017.06.24 19:20:00 - [9] - Quote This brings me to what CCP Rattati can learn from all this for Project Nova. We have now seen how extremely toxic players can be with picks and meta heroes in Overwatch. I am hoping CCP Rattati does not create a competitive system that encourages players to stick to the meta. I would really like to see a competitive-level Project Nova where players don't need to rely on sticking to the flavor of the month just to progress in competitive and instead rely on their skills and how they coordinate with their teammates better. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13788	Posted - 2017.06.24 23:42:00 - [10] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: This brings me to what CCP Rattati can learn from all this for Project Nova. We have now seen how extremely toxic players can be with picks and meta heroes in Overwatch. I am hoping CCP Rattati does not create a competitive system that encourages players to stick to the meta. I would really like to see a competitive-level Project Nova where players don't need to rely on sticking to the flavor of the month just to progress in competitive and instead rely on their skills and how they coordinate with their teammates better. I don't think we should worry about this. Even in Dust, while fotm was a thing it wasn't necessary to compete on a serious level. There was a literal counter to everything. And now with the vehicles gone they have no excuse in terms of balance. Pretty much. I couldn't possibly see vehicles being used in competitive modes for Project Nova. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy

Maken Tosch DUST University 13788	Posted - 2017.06.24 23:43:00 - [11] - Quote deadpool lifetone wrote: . Dont ever dever ever compare a weak game like OverWatch to Dust514 lol seriously though , we ( smart guys ) had to do a bit of number crunching in dust back in the day with the spreadsheets to make o.p fits & pass it along . The beauty of it was that there were actual counter measures for each one . OverWatch doesn't even come close to the 'Meta' level of Dust . Spreadsheets Online Spreadsheets 514 And now... Spreadsheets Nova Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13788	Posted - 2017.06.24 23:44:00 - [12] - Quote Richard Gamerich-R wrote: Ranked in Overwatch PC become more serious around plat/diamond, don't expect too much about your team before that. In the meantime, I will continue to play on as Hanzo being told to kill myself and be reported for throwing. Damn, suddenly getting suicide ganked in Eve Online sounds more pleasant. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13788	Posted - 2017.06.25 23:36:00 - [13] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: There I am. https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/career/pc/us/GrumpyKitten-115526 SR 1158 https://www.overbuff.com/players/psn/DeadlyAztec11?mode=competitive Yo, SR 4182 right here. Things won't get much better the higher you go. There will be more people that understand how to play, but cooperation never really becomes standard. Aren't you basically forced to cooperate in GM? That would be the only time I would ever cooperate which is why I have a backup main that I play once in a while to refresh myself. Once I get to GM I won't have any other goal and thus will be more inclined to switch. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy