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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:20:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well to clarify, as far as I know there is only one Logi. I had a feeling this was the road we were going down when Rattati first said he did not want to make four of everything. It sounds like Nova will be like the beginning days of DUST where there was only 1 Scout (Gal), 1 Logi (Min), 1 Assault (Cal), and 1 Sentinel (Amarr). That is correct. Firmware obviously offers some variety, but I imagine that future expansion of the system would yield new classes, rather than variations of existing ones.
This is just for context here to make sure I'm following, but in this example I assume it would at best be impractical to build a squad purely for the RP value (or any other reason) of say just Minmatar suits? This is not a comparison to DUST. I just want to know if this is the foundation that NOVA is being built on. Or at least a reasonable interpretation.
Or is this one generic logi suit without racial affiliation?
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:38:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:byte modal wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Moorian Flav wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well to clarify, as far as I know there is only one Logi. I had a feeling this was the road we were going down when Rattati first said he did not want to make four of everything. It sounds like Nova will be like the beginning days of DUST where there was only 1 Scout (Gal), 1 Logi (Min), 1 Assault (Cal), and 1 Sentinel (Amarr). That is correct. Firmware obviously offers some variety, but I imagine that future expansion of the system would yield new classes, rather than variations of existing ones. This is just for context here to make sure I'm following, but in this example I assume it would at best be impractical to build a squad purely for the RP value (or any other reason) of say just Minmatar suits? This is not a comparison to DUST. I just want to know if this is the foundation that NOVA is being built on. Or at least a reasonable interpretation. Or is this one generic logi suit without racial affiliation? The suit is tied specifically to an NPC corps/manufacturer. That manufacturer likely has a race it is tied to (Boundless Minmatar, Creodron Gallente, ect.)
But what I'm getting at is if that one Logi suit is then tied to a single NPC corp, that NPC corp is going to be tied to a race. So the one logi suit is only ever a Minmatar suit. Am I understanding that right? And there is only one logi suit? So every logi suit is Minmatar?
Sorry, I haven't had a chance to read/listen to the OP for clarity so I may be rehashing all this.
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Posted - 2017.06.01 15:53:00 -
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Ok. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I'm only speaking broadly to race. I don't like getting into specifics (factions) if my understandings of a bigger picture are wrong. ...usually ;)
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Posted - 2017.06.01 18:24:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:Don't take those bonuses to mean much. Literally pulled them out of my ass at 2am when I was writing this. They were purely to present and easily understandable example, and not a finalized design.
I like it when you talk dirty. I miss that about you.
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Posted - 2017.06.01 20:23:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:And only 4 assault suits in Dust made much more sense?
Besides, what you're seeing are different corporations takes on the same ideas.
Corp A says "We want a suit that's well rounded with food speed, defense, and damage output" so they make the Assault suit
Corp B says "We want an offensive suit with lots of flexibility and hp even if it costs us some speed" so they make the Vanguard (which is like the heavy assault)
Corp C says "we want an offensive suit that's agile and stealthy, good for assassinations and covert kills" so they make the Infiltrator (which is like the light Assault)
In the future you may get Corp D that says "We want an offer some suit that specializes in sapping enemy capacitor to fuel his active offensive abilities" and create their own take on the idea of "Assault"
Or Corp E that says "we want an offensive suit that specializes in indirect damage with lots of bonuses to grenades and aoe weapons" and create their own take on "Assault"
I guess it depends from what perspective you are seeing that play out. Four assault suits do make sense in DUST if each race has a racial suit to fill an assault role. From that perspective, yes, it does make sense.
If the corp is manufacturing these suits to sell (rather than to deploy directly), then that can make sense to me as well. If the corp is wanting to take part in some militant advance or defense, it would make absolutely no sense to produce and field only one class of combat suit.
...
Team, I want to build an army like no other, to expand our military might and to conquer this stinking sector of the known universe!!!!! Yes Sir!!!
I want all ideas on the table! Leave no stone un-turned!!! Well...I was thinking. What if we put all of our eggs into one basket here and only research, develop, and deploy heavy pounding but slow suits so that we can turtle bottleneck entry points?
BRILLIANT thinking there, Jimmy!! *pats little Jimmy on the butt* Awe shucks, Sir!!
But Sir... what if we are deployed in open terrain? And the enemy forces are made up of lighter, more mobile infantry that our heavies cannot track? PREPOSTEROUS, Tommy!!!! Who would think to deploy a team of only light scouts?! Use that brain of yours, son, and start thinking for a change!! ...
Jimmy? Yes....um. Yes, Sir?
Meet me out back for a little PT. Sir, yes Sir!
lol. anyway. The point I guess I'm worming around here is that context is a huge factor in understanding some of this. As more posts pop up, I am realizing some of these key factors are missing and are being misunderstood in assumption. The more of these type of details that we can learn, the more likely we are to get the design of the bigger picture.
Corps specializing and fielding only one suit type is not practical at all. Corps specializing and SELLING only one suit type can be profitable. That distinction is missing here and can seriously distort the view of what's playing out, I believe.
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Posted - 2017.06.01 23:39:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:Well people are locked into the idea that all assault suits need to be called "Assault". What if he just look at the types of roles in two very broad categories.
Assault - These are your primary damage dealers, the ones kicking the doors in, doing the most damage, and focusing on killing the enemy.
Support - These are the force multipliers. The roles that fill in the gaps and perform more specialist roles. They're the ones providing cover fire, healing allies, and picking off long range targets.
So now if we think in these broad terms, now let's say you have 6 corporations each making their own version of a suit that fits into one of those broad categories.
So corporation A-C builds their version an Assault Dropsuit. Corporations D-F builds their version of a Support dropsuit.
A builds a Vanguard B builds a Frontline C builds an infiltrator
D builds a Sentinel E builds a Logistics F builds a marksman
Does that make sense?
I think the reason we are locked into the idea of assaults being assaults is because our only context is through what was experienced in DUST. That goes back to my point though with these smaller details. I think so much time has passed living in a holding pattern post-DUST waiting for the next thing, that we've more or less run our own speculations in a completely hypothetical environment---because there was nothing else provided to counter that. A lot of us DUST players are unfortunately stuck in the DUST mindset (some out of stubbornness, others simply because we have no other context to base our views upon than what we experienced). Assault is "assault" as DUST defined assault. for good or bad, that's our starting point of context.
Apparently our perspective is off now. Which is fine. Really. I think as time passes and more of us realize CCP's intentional redirection from a DUST replacement to a "NEW and SEPARATE game," we will all come around; however, there are still pockets of missing information where it is just too easy to rely on preconceived notions based on DUST's teachings and our experiences there.
Pokey: Keep fighting the good fight. Your posts are helping mediate between the two camps.
To the suit explanation, I think I get where you're coming from but I still say it would be impractical for a corporation to specialize in just one type of suit if that corporation has desire to field those suits for aggression against other corps. In your outline, that really would only make sense if each of the separate corporations had an agreement with one another to form some type of coalition to fight along side each other. This would be designed to take advantage of other corp suit types to complement their own suit weaknesses. Like, "Hey my suit is logi! I can't fight a battle for my corp with a field full of logis?! Your corp designed a kick-ass frontline attack suit? Hey! Let's work together!!! Or I'll sell you some of mine and you sell me some of yours?" I struggle with the idea that only a Minmatar corp would create a logi, and would be willing to share that logi tech for assault tech designed by an Amarr corp ...in mutual support for each other.
Let me repeat my earlier statement though: If the corp's sole purpose in development of a single suit type is to SELL for profit, then by all means let them. That makes perfect sense. If corps are creating and selling to us, the mercs to do with as we place, then I think that is logical. Otherwise I can't realistically see 16 Min logis running around a battlefield if individual corps are fighting their own wars.
Hey. I'm not trying to be difficult, I promise. I'm only providing an example of a seemingly subtle detail that could be causing confusion here, and as a result, more push back in resistance. It confused me (still does, to a small degree!!), but I'm trying to see it the way you are reading it.
Alright. I gotta leave for the day. Take care and thanks for the responses so far.
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Posted - 2017.06.02 02:03:00 -
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Yay! Some common ground here, finally ;)
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Posted - 2017.06.02 14:38:00 -
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@CCP Rattati:
Ok,so to over-simplify here for me to get my head around something that I can relate to, dropsuits are going to be a generic nebulous thing, that we as players will then apply a software design to so that when "built on-the-fly," we can tweak the physical build of the suit to support whatever role we are looking to provide. If anything, it's the firmware patches that we earn/purchase/whatever that defines the suit being BUILT in our little player suitcase (or whatever we call it) that we take to the field.
I take that to mean the original design of a suit is some generic universal template, where race isn't even a factor anymore. Do I assume all races are using the same generic molding blank? I mean as far as lore goes? So each race will then have a "car" template. Basic 4 wheels, sedan, 6-cyl engine. Everyone in the universe has access to this due to some universal socialist-type agreement that this is everyone's base standard; or over some long time-frame that allowed all suit tech to distill itself down to the most basic common version? Instead of evolving the suit, the suit devolved until reaching that most comment default universal state, while custom firmware evolved instead?
Everyone buys a ps3, but with each software update, your ps3 goes to the next gen capability without really changing the ps3 case. Well, I guess in this example, you have a 3d printer at home just building a slightly modified version of the ps3 with each upgrade, but essentially the ps3 is the base model.
Who designed the default suit? How did enemy races get access to that design?
Please correct me where I am wrong. I am only trying to connect the dots. If I am understanding you right, this is *very* different than what we understand dropsuits to be based on our experience with DUST. That is not necessarily a complaint as it is just pointing out why it is so difficult for us out-of-the-know to grasp. We are trying, but all we really have to to relate to is coming from DUST experience. I think it would help greatly to preface everything with "this is not DUST... strap in, because this is going to be tricky to explain! Forget everything you know because it's no longer relatable." ;) I'm over here trying to conceptually patch your A to my understanding of what A used to be and it's no longer a one-to-one relationship. At least something like that would help break us from the ideas we have already built so many fantasies on since NOVA's announcement ;)
I mean that with respect and love btw.
I think I'm getting closer to getting what is going on. Assuming my post is anywhere near point. Thanks for the check-ins.
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Posted - 2017.06.02 15:34:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:You're too focused on "what race". The real question is "who is the base manufacturer?".
Each of the 6 base classes has 1 manufacturer. So the base suits design is based off of that manufacturers design specs. Now, that company may belong to a certain race, so those design specs may resemble that race in general.
So the Core Logistics will probably look Minmatar since Core is a Minmatar company.
If Sisters of EVE made a dropsuit, it would probably look like a Sisters of EVE ship, since they're same manufacturer.
The company may or may not be tied to a specific race, so stop focusing on "what race". Focus on the manufacturersGÇï.
I'm focused on race because EvE. Everything is race. That's why I am pushing so hard to get a clear declaration of distinction between NOVA and EvE and/or DUST players' ideas of in-game player separations. Much of the confusion in this thread alone is rooted in the player's misconception that NOVA is treating race as the average EvE/DUST player would simply assume. That does not seem to be the case, which is fine. For me, I am now seeing my disconnect in understanding. I just think to highlight such an obvious (after the fact for me, unfortunately) disconnect in understanding would really help bridge the gap of understanding and translation here that some of us are struggling to obtain. I'm really not trying to be difficult, this is just how my brain works. If i'm thinking orange for the last 4 years, then you tell me, 'no. actually, everything is purple." It's going to take a moment to even comprehend what that means to then begin deconstructing all of my knowledge and now assumptions of how orange is actually not orange.
I get your description. Rat's follow-up helped clarify. I just find it odd that only one racial corp will make a base class. I've already written to that in a previous post. It just is what it is and that will be fine in the end. This is a different game. Part of the confusion comes because of things like this though. On one hand we are moving NOVA development to Iceland to be more EvE like. On the other, we aren't using EvE universe basic principles of how races interact with each other, which is the underlying current of the EvE history and existence.
But again, it's a different game. So be it. Cool. It would just help those of us hung up on looking at this from the perspective learned through EvE, DUST, and CCP to clearly remove the blurry lines on some of this. Or to reinforce that major conceptual differnce moving forward. Knowing that earlier on I think would have saved us both a lot of grief stopping me from posting the last 10-20 posts throughout the last week or so ;) I know you (and others) have got to be getting tired of my push-backs by now :)
Ultimately, I'm honestly just trying to break my assumptions from the vacuum that has been this past year. I want to understand and I am getting things more clearly now. I am pushing now to see if any of my questions, or analogies help others similarly confused by all of this. Concepts are not transposing one-to-one. Now I see why. Perhaps others will start to see it as well and we can all ease back onto the same page to move forward.
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Posted - 2017.06.02 15:43:00 -
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CCP Rattati wrote: Again, we are trying our best to translate the soul. What makes EVE and DUST so great, and where can we improvise without compromising the essence of New Eden.
I did not see this response. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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Posted - 2017.06.02 16:34:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:I get you byte. It can be hard to break a deeply engrained perception of how things are from what you're used to.
It's like biting into an apple expecting it to taste like an apple, but it actually tastes like an orange. Not what you were expecting, but you may end up really liking the new taste anyways.
Yeah, and I'm ok with eating an orange if that's what it is in the end. Disappointments aside, my biggest concern at this point is the translation between these two positions. Which is really why I keep hammering these few, relatively minor points over and over. I hope that others will start to see what I'm now seeing to understand---whether or not they agree still is a different matter, just that at least our base level of understanding will be on equal footing. Biting into an orange, expecting an apple is jarring. My tastes will tell me what is what, once I've had time to process the experience. Being told that an apple will now taste like an orange without a real point of experience to confirm that is quite another thing altogether ;)
To be clear, I am not drinking the Kool-Aid just yet. I am terribly disappointed on a lot of levels. That's another matter. Understanding here is crucial though if there is to be any reasonable communication and expectation from the carry-over player base. That means CCP must draw very clear and distinct lines for as often as they can to begin breaking away from the DUST paradigm. I understand if there are PR or corporate restrictions preventing this. This is the real world, after all. But it would help tremendously.
Fortunately for CCP, the new player base will be just that: new, and without the influence of DUST and the remaining expectations that it created, for the most part at least. How that will sit with DUST vets grazing in other fields waiting for a sign of return is unknown. I seriously doubt all players are active forum or Discord participants. The old guard may not even matter in the end, if a large enough influx of new mercs come out to play. For good or bad, we'll see what comes.
Thanks for entertaining my rants.
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Posted - 2017.06.02 18:43:00 -
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Moorian Flav wrote:IDK. Since posting last, I did some serious thinking to wrap my head around all the info provided about Nova so far without any context to EVE or DUST. After doing so, I realized what I ended up with sounded like another game I played before. The game had in game class leveling for what you're playing, ability to easily switch between classes, weapon customization, in game weapon leveling, and had Factions you can pledge allegiance to where you can earn Reputation to buy Faction specific gear. Someone please tell me I am horribly off base here as I shan't even say the game's name I am referring to.
L'oh! /wave playerName /whisper *kek kek kek.*
*ambush*
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Posted - 2017.06.04 15:27:00 -
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DeathwindRising wrote:What's kind of a problem is that Rattati isn't acknowledging that manufacturers design everything differently from each other. Sure four of them may produce a vanguard suit, but they would all be made with tweaked base stats and totally different bonuses. Globally, they follow the theme of racial affiliation, so Amarr manufacturers will still always produce dropsuits that offer superior armor HP compared to caldari, gallente, minmatar manufacturers. Rattati wants to move away from simply having Caldari, Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar suits, and focus on the the corps that actually produce the suits. But I'm not sure he realizes is actually like this: Caldari > Ishokune, Lai Dai, Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi. Amarr > Khanid Kingdom, Viziam, Carthum, Ammatar This race establishes a baseline, the manufacturers offer variants of it. No matter what Rattati does, it's always going to be caldari, Amarr, gallente, minmatar at the end of the day. The manufacturers simply produce a variation of a baseline that belongs to a race. I've never understood how Rattati thinks Nova will can only focus on particular manufacturers as if they don't all share a common baseline. Perhaps he's just explains things in way that not clear and he actually does intend to follow the established hierarchy. I just don't get that impression. I means there was lore to back all this stuff up too at some point. Caldari focus on shields because they don't have the same material resources as gallente when they went independent. amarr has thick armor because they pillaged resources through minmatar slave labor, which is why minmatar don't have high amounts of armor or shielding.
Pretty much the heart of my argument in this thread since day one. Yes, I'm focussed on race... Because race is the root of everything in the EvE universe. No, it's about the corporation! OK, but that corp belongs to a race that has resource and ideological restrictions.
One corp is the only corp to create logis. That corp belongs the Minmatar Republic. No one else had the idea of a logi? The Amarr Empire would just use Minmatar tech? Or vice versa?
You can lean on the corp idea to justify whatever. But it seems like the concept of race (as it exists in EvE) is being written off. Is the idea of returning to Iceland to make NOVA more EvE-like then just a superficial effort? I mean for the visual style of environments and equipment alone?
If so, then just call it what it is. We'll still play the game.
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Posted - 2017.06.08 17:37:00 -
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bwahahaha.
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