DUST Search - News: Vehicles and Nova

Alena Asakura wrote:

MarasdF Loron wrote:

Alena Asakura wrote:

One Eyed King wrote:

Imbalance is bad. Sure, if you are talking real life, you don't want to fight a war on an even playing field.

Games aren't real life, they are entertainment. Unbalanced games fail because fewer people are having fun than are frustrated. Part of the reason Dust failed was due to its inability to retain players, which was at least in part due to imbalance.

I hated my Scout being OP even more than I hated early on when it was difficult.

What good would it be to finally have vehicles if your dropship full of gunners could easily be taken out by a single militia swarm so far out that you couldn't even see him or have a chance to evade? You wouldn't play that, nor should you be expected to.

Let's not kid ourselves and expect Nova to exist and thrive without balance. And if occasional nerfs and buffs are needed, so be it.

The good thing about Nova being on PC is that they can have test servers to try things out before they release to everyone. Maybe that way we can avoid some of the more extreme nerfs/buffs that resulted in OP/UP items doing a 180.

No, imbalance is good.

Your words are those of someone who doesn't understand the single most important thing about New Eden - it IS real life for those who live there. The whole point of EvE in the first place was to be as real as possible, but then they started this buff/nerf cycle which is so disruptive in EvE as well as it was in Dust. At some point, I hope they will still stop that cycle, and go to a more moderate approach of continual small incremental improvements but they should NEVER strive for "balance". FOTM should always be a moving target, so that FOTM-followers always have to be moving onto newer fits, but non-FOTM players shouldn't suddenly have their favourite fits made useless because of some stupid nerf that hobbles it.

Well, I'm not a player that came to Dust from EVE, but to me one of the most intiguing aspects of Dust battles was the feel of escalation. The match may have started out small with everyone using relatively rubbish stuff and then someone brings in something more powerful than others have and after that someone brings in something even more powerful to "counter" that and so on until everyone and their mothers are competing to bring in the strongest stuff available.
And because everything had a price it was quite satisfying to get kills and you could feel the blow if you died, especially as a vehicle pilot.
I fear Nova will not be able to capture this feel either if they are going too small and for too much balance.

Good points. Escalation was the practical outcome of the complexity in the game. EvE is a tremendously complex game. In comparison, Dust with its skill tree was almost laughably simple, but was still more complex than most games out there. To me the skill tree was dumbed down, in comparison to that of EvE. Things like the lack of a capacitor, for instance, presumably because people wouldn't know how to use it, dumbed the game down.

A capacitor for the record is a store of energy from the power grid, to be released in sudden bursts for one purpose or another. In EvE it's used for everything from firing railguns, blasters and lasers to powering the warp bubble for traversing solar systems. In Nova, it would be used to power weapons, cloaks, dampeners, etc, everything that "cycles" or needs bursts of energy, rather than just being powered directly from the power grid.

If they are serious about producing a truly complex Nova, these are the sorts of things that need to be considered. Based on Dust, I have a low expectation of seeing this, but the fact they want to do it right, and are moving to the PC, for something that looks like they are going to make a game that's better than the original, gives me hope.


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MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1135	Posted - 2017.04.11 20:40:00 - [1] - Quote Well, I've been away from these forums for a long time, well, as an active partaker anyway, though I have been stalking these forums for Nova news ever since it's been a thing. Anyway, if this is true and Nova will not have vehicles, ever, I will not be playing it sadly. I think that for vehicle gameplay Dust filled a void when it came to very customizable vehicles and on top of that it had "great" economy and most certainly even better community. I guess the time has come for me to drop my dream. I feel like my heart's broken now.
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1136	Posted - 2017.04.12 03:42:00 - [2] - Quote Well, I was going by the information in the OP. Anyway, if they won't have content for me who doesn't care that much about infantry combat (except for MGO2 and Rust) shortly after launch then I won't stay around and wait because it's not the game that I used to love and hate, there would probably only be hate left. There would be no point for me to keep playing a game that I don't like just for the hope of one day having vehicles, and if I (and others) don't play and vehicles do get released some day, then any vehicle pilot coming back at that point (could be just me) would be far behind any infantry veteran in SP at that point. Oh and about Star Wars, call me crazy (no, not that stupid song from way back when things still looked bright) but I actually liked Phantom Menace and the other prequels way more than The Force Awakens. Maybe it has something to do with having gotten over all the Star Wars hype of my youth but I will probably never rewatch TFA, not anytime soon anyway.
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1138	Posted - 2017.04.12 06:21:00 - [3] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: From my point of view it is JJ Abrams who is evil! We were talking in discord earlier that it would make sense to create a separate SP pool for vehicles only, this would mean you are no longer forced to pick between a new suit or quicker turret rotation and therefore are not gimped if it's a non vehicle map They could just back out of certain maps, i mean if you play vehicles odds are you're not going to want to play infantry..Im sure we can figure something out we have plenty of time =ƒì+ Also i don't like seperate sp, a no life could max vehicles and dropsuits instead of choosing one to max first..i prefer dedicated roles an being able to switch it up but i shouldn't have proto tanks and dropsuits within a year..one of them yeah but not both (Idk how your sp pool would work) About that, I think that infantry only maps should be only included in infantry only game modes. And competitive game modes like PC (if there will be anything of the sort) should include all roles. Maybe there could be some sort of incentive for infantry to play pub matches in game modes that have all roles? I agree about not having separate SP, I think your own personal choices should define what your role is at least until you simply have enough SP to put it into pretty much everything. And vehicles do indeed need better purpose besides just slaying, I think modern Battlefield games have done vehicle roles really nicely, but I guess Nova won't have destructible environment, not fully anyway, but there could be some kind of gates, walls, barricades etc that can be destroyed with vehicles and explosives. Normal dropships would have a much clearer purpose if the distances between objectives and distance from initial spawns to closest objective would be long enough (in all roles maps). But all of this seems like a pointless conversation if the devs don't want vehicles in the game.
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1138	Posted - 2017.04.12 11:04:00 - [4] - Quote BigStuarty wrote: Wow lots of reading and enthusiasm.. Where have you all been! A couple of observations on my part. Let CCP get the fps mechanics correct. Let the game evolve. I'm sure vehicles will be introduced when and where correct.Remember the evolvement of Dust. Even from closed Beta to Warlords it became a different game. The main thing CCP want is back to the beginning and to get it right. I would say to all the tankers and ads is patience your time will come and we shall one day again feel your rage. I appreciate the thought, however there a few problems that come to mind, most (if not all) of them have been mentioned here already. First of all if you don't include vehicles in the initial full release then they will be much harder to balance into the game later on. And if vehicles are not included in any form during the beta testing then most likely dedicated vehicle pilots will not be sticking around after the full release of the game because they have nothing to do. The biggest problem however would be that if the devs go with the approach stated in the OP, that vehicles will simply be "dumb" assets that you won't be skilling into nor will you be fitting them yourself then no self respecting vehicle pilot will want to play this game. The reason that I didn't play BF1 for more than a few hours and instead went back to BF4 is the way they handled the vehicles. They went from minimal customization to no customization and bad spawning system to ridiculous spawning system, it's frustrating enough having to wait spamming that vehicle spawn button and then when it actually spawns you'll get a bug and you spawn elsewhere and someone else gets that vehicle before you and then you just gotta suicide and start waiting again. Naaah, that wasn't bad enough, they had to make it so that you again have to spam that vehicle spawn button and then when one finally spawns you'll get either: A) Spawned into it without being able to change the preset loadout of that vehicle, because you have to change the loadout when there are free vehicles available and if you take too long changing the loadout then someone else will have already taken that vehicle (and since you spammed that button you won't get the option to go to loadouts anyway) B) Watch as that vehicle becomes available as you are spamming that button, watch as another one of them is available and then still watch as they are both gone and you'll still have to wait. At least with BF4 you could just go change your vehicle fittings while you are waiting but in BF1 they thought that it'd be stupid to let you utilize that time which you are spending waiting for the spawn. I was very hyped for BF1 tanks before release, I was like "Yay! FINALLY We get actual teamwork tanks and other vehicles!" and then the truth was that while we got these teamwork vehicles it was insanely hard to get into one and when you finally got into one then you would just quite easily get killed by the Assault class which happens to be the go-to class for infantry slaying and vehicle destroying alike. So that class got very good solo firepower against tanks without sacrificing any of their firepower against infantry. So it basically resulted in getting stomped by 3-10 assaults at the same time when simply one of them was enough to destroy a full 6-man tank, all the while they could easily defend themselves against other infantry. And that was called balance.
MarasdF Loron fatal absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1141	Posted - 2017.04.14 09:24:00 - [5] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Imbalance is bad. Sure, if you are talking real life, you don't want to fight a war on an even playing field. Games aren't real life, they are entertainment. Unbalanced games fail because fewer people are having fun than are frustrated. Part of the reason Dust failed was due to its inability to retain players, which was at least in part due to imbalance. I hated my Scout being OP even more than I hated early on when it was difficult. What good would it be to finally have vehicles if your dropship full of gunners could easily be taken out by a single militia swarm so far out that you couldn't even see him or have a chance to evade? You wouldn't play that, nor should you be expected to. Let's not kid ourselves and expect Nova to exist and thrive without balance. And if occasional nerfs and buffs are needed, so be it. The good thing about Nova being on PC is that they can have test servers to try things out before they release to everyone. Maybe that way we can avoid some of the more extreme nerfs/buffs that resulted in OP/UP items doing a 180. No, imbalance is good. Your words are those of someone who doesn't understand the single most important thing about New Eden - it IS real life for those who live there. The whole point of EvE in the first place was to be as real as possible, but then they started this buff/nerf cycle which is so disruptive in EvE as well as it was in Dust. At some point, I hope they will still stop that cycle, and go to a more moderate approach of continual small incremental improvements but they should NEVER strive for "balance". FOTM should always be a moving target, so that FOTM-followers always have to be moving onto newer fits, but non-FOTM players shouldn't suddenly have their favourite fits made useless because of some stupid nerf that hobbles it. Well, I'm not a player that came to Dust from EVE, but to me one of the most intiguing aspects of Dust battles was the feel of escalation. The match may have started out small with everyone using relatively rubbish stuff and then someone brings in something more powerful than others have and after that someone brings in something even more powerful to "counter" that and so on until everyone and their mothers are competing to bring in the strongest stuff available. And because everything had a price it was quite satisfying to get kills and you could feel the blow if you died, especially as a vehicle pilot. I fear Nova will not be able to capture this feel either if they are going too small and for too much balance.
MarasdF Loron fatal absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1142	Posted - 2017.04.14 21:39:00 - [6] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Imbalance is bad. Sure, if you are talking real life, you don't want to fight a war on an even playing field. Games aren't real life, they are entertainment. Unbalanced games fail because fewer people are having fun than are frustrated. Part of the reason Dust failed was due to its inability to retain players, which was at least in part due to imbalance. I hated my Scout being OP even more than I hated early on when it was difficult. What good would it be to finally have vehicles if your dropship full of gunners could easily be taken out by a single militia swarm so far out that you couldn't even see him or have a chance to evade? You wouldn't play that, nor should you be expected to. Let's not kid ourselves and expect Nova to exist and thrive without balance. And if occasional nerfs and buffs are needed, so be it. The good thing about Nova being on PC is that they can have test servers to try things out before they release to everyone. Maybe that way we can avoid some of the more extreme nerfs/buffs that resulted in OP/UP items doing a 180. No, imbalance is good. Your words are those of someone who doesn't understand the single most important thing about New Eden - it IS real life for those who live there. The whole point of EvE in the first place was to be as real as possible, but then they started this buff/nerf cycle which is so disruptive in EvE as well as it was in Dust. At some point, I hope they will still stop that cycle, and go to a more moderate approach of continual small incremental improvements but they should NEVER strive for "balance". FOTM should always be a moving target, so that FOTM-followers always have to be moving onto newer fits, but non-FOTM players shouldn't suddenly have their favourite fits made useless because of some stupid nerf that hobbles it. Well, I'm not a player that came to Dust from EVE, but to me one of the most intiguing aspects of Dust battles was the feel of escalation. The match may have started out small with everyone using relatively rubbish stuff and then someone brings in something more powerful than others have and after that someone brings in something even more powerful to "counter" that and so on until everyone and their mothers are competing to bring in the strongest stuff available. And because everything had a price it was quite satisfying to get kills and you could feel the blow if you died, especially as a vehicle pilot. I fear Nova will not be able to capture this feel either if they are going too small and for too much balance. Good points. Escalation was the practical outcome of the complexity in the game. EvE is a tremendously complex game. In comparison, Dust with its skill tree was almost laughably simple, but was still more complex than most games out there. To me the skill tree was dumbed down, in comparison to that of EvE. Things like the lack of a capacitor, for instance, presumably because people wouldn't know how to use it, dumbed the game down. A capacitor for the record is a store of energy from the power grid, to be released in sudden bursts for one purpose or another. In EvE it's used for everything from firing railguns, blasters and lasers to powering the warp bubble for traversing solar systems. In Nova, it would be used to power weapons, cloaks, dampeners, etc, everything that "cycles" or needs bursts of energy, rather than just being powered directly from the power grid. If they are serious about producing a truly complex Nova, these are the sorts of things that need to be considered. Based on Dust, I have a low expectation of seeing this, but the fact they want to do it right, and are moving to the PC, for something that looks like they are going to make a game that's better than the original, gives me hope. Hmm, I've tried to get into EVE but it simply requires way more time to learn it than I have time on my hands, maybe one day, maybe. These basic mechanics that could also be used in an FPS game are not really the most time consuming to get the grasp of so I don't see why they couldn't be implemented into Nova. I always wanted to have capacitors in Dust, especially for vehicles. It would have solved so many problems with vehicles at any point in the game. Instead of having seperate durations and cooldowns for each module, you could just use whatever you want for as long as you have power remaining. You wouldn't have seen so much hardener stacking and what not that were a huge issue with vehicles. Among other things, of course.
MarasdF Loron fatal absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1143	Posted - 2017.04.15 09:55:00 - [7] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: Nothing ever gets nerfed in real life Banks nerf interest on savings... All the time. Catch man-flu, nature has temporarily nerfed you. Bought yourself a VW car recently... It's emission stats totally got nerfed. Transportation nerfs... Public transport never gets buffed, it gets more expensive, but it only ever gets worse. And that big bomb 'Murica dropped, totally nerfed some durka durka tunnels. I'll be the captain obvious here and say that I'm sure he/she meant warfare. Stuff gets "banned" but never nerfed, or maybe it does, idk.
MarasdF Loron fatal absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1145	Posted - 2017.04.16 13:29:00 - [8] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: My signature says enough about my opinion on vehicles. Glad they got rid of them. They were always ruining the fun for everyone else anyways. There are plenty of futuristic lobby shooters already without vehicles, so why not go play one of those if you don't like vehicles or the people who like them? Because that's what Nova would be without vehicles, just another futuristic lobby shooter. I can't think of a more boring FPS than a futuristic one without vehicles. All that technology and still not advanced enough to use vehicles for warfare? Seriously?
MarasdF Loron fatal absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1145	Posted - 2017.04.17 11:27:00 - [9] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: My signature says enough about my opinion on vehicles. Glad they got rid of them. They were always ruining the fun for everyone else anyways. Stupid hardener stacking ruined the fun, not vehicles. Vehicles should be in the game at some point and a balance between AV and vehicles needs to be made early. They never found out how to balance them though. Better off without them if they don't fit in the game. As far as the " play another game / you're just bad / salt salt salt" comments, I can't believe people are still so butthurt about Dust. My signature still hold true then. They actually had them "balanced" pretty nicely in the earlier days, it was the complete vehicle overhaul that made vehicles so incredibly broken in Dust. I'm not sure if you are trolling or not but it is so arrogant of you vehicle haters to come and play a game that has vehicles and then say that vehicles should be thrown out of the game. So if they are creating Dust again from the ground up and calling it Nova, it really should have most of the aspects of Dust. If you don't like vehicles then why did you play a game that had vehicles when there were and still are plenty of games out there without vehicles?
MarasdF Loron fatal absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1147	Posted - 2017.04.19 05:37:00 - [10] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Moorian Flav wrote: Void Echo wrote: As weve all seen from CCP's history. Advertisement and what they show at fanfest is hardly ever what they deliver We all know (including CCP) that CCP over hyped and didn't deliver on alot of their promises for DUST. That is why CCP is so reclusive about Project Nova and such negativity is not helping. CCP did have its failing with DUST but at least they are still trying to make a FPS that is unique and great rather than rehashing the same crap FPS game year after year like the big boys. Eh. As long as the end result makes cod **** their pants, im good. You know as well as anyone that it's not going to happen. CoD fanboys only care about CoD, no matter how much better some other game is. Which is one of the reasons I don't understand why game devs try to make their games appealing to the CoD audience. They only hurt themselves as CoD players won't care about that game and neither will those that don't like CoD if it's too CoD-like.

MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1147	Posted - 2017.04.19 13:49:00 - [11] - Quote Void Echo wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Void Echo wrote: Moorian Flav wrote: Void Echo wrote: As weve all seen from CCP's history. Advertisement and what they show at fanfest is hardly ever what they deliver We all know (including CCP) that CCP over hyped and didn't deliver on alot of their promises for DUST. That is why CCP is so reclusive about Project Nova and such negativity is not helping. CCP did have its failing with DUST but at least they are still trying to make a FPS that is unique and great rather than rehashing the same crap FPS game year after year like the big boys. Eh. As long as the end result makes cod **** their pants, im good. You know as well as anyone that it's not going to happen. CoD fanboys only care about CoD, no matter how much better some other game is. Which is one of the reasons I don't understand why game devs try to make their games appealing to the CoD audience. They only hurt themselves as CoD players won't care about that game and neither will those that don't like CoD if it's too CoD-like. The only reason destiny failed ia because the story writers quit halfway through development. Plus if nova is released on pc only and doesn't gp to ps4 fpr at least 3 years, they might as well not fo to console The only reason? I disagree. Destiny couldn't hold my interest even for 30 mins. I started playing with my friend because he wanted to try that game out but after one play session neither one of us wanted to return to that game, ever. I never could see what people liked about Desitny in the first place.
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 1148	Posted - 2017.04.20 17:43:00 - [12] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote: Yup, Dust's first trailer and the end product itself are worlds apart. (hmm, yeah...) I was watching some of the old trailers and they all heavily feature vehicles, like the vehicles are the main part of the game Interesting to see how times have changed Yeah, it really seems as if they want to create an entirely different game this time around. Not the one that they envisioned a long time ago. Well, I for one really liked their vision for Dust, too bad it seems like that's all it's ever going to be, just a vision. A dream about something insanely awesome that will never ever happen. :(