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Git Gud Bruh
0.P.
272
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Posted - 2017.04.07 19:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
So guys, this is officially the second year of waiting for Nova. We were shown a playable demo 365 days ago. Apparently every aspect of actual gameplay has been finished seeing as Project Nova has now moved to Iceland. From a logical perspective we could analyze all of the information we've been able to glean and come up with the conclusion that Nova, CCP's first person shooter is finished. It would seem that the only thing left on the list would be finishing touches, which is why the game has moved to Iceland for further development. I'm sure CCP is now trying to come up with more ways to make the game feel like a part of New Eden rather than a remastering of the game they let burn to the ground. At this point I'll take whatever they'll give me though.
Sadly i doubt we will ever see vehicles in Nova. I doubt orbitals will be a thing either, seeing as the gameplay we've seen of it all appears to be in extremely close quarters inside of buildings. Hopefully we'll see more than two weapons for the Sentinel unlike last time around. A massive hipfired laser rifle with an overheat mechanic would be a great addition in my opinion, sort of a cross between the forge gun and HMG.
I simply hope that Nova is released to us as soon as CCP can possibly do so. I will not wait until 2018-19 to play a game that was a playable demo in 2016. If it takes until 2019 for this game to be released I will be deleting my EVE accounts as I recommend you all do too, those of you that play EVE at least.
I'm Git Gud and I'm a recovering Dust addict.
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XxBlazikenxX
WarRavens Imperium Eden
5626
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Posted - 2017.04.07 19:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well Rouge said that a playable alpha could come at FF18 or before, and he said he doubts it would take as long as FF19
And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9136
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Posted - 2017.04.07 19:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'm a bit concerned about the logic that "move studios" equates to "basically done".
EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
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XxBlazikenxX
WarRavens Imperium Eden
5629
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Posted - 2017.04.07 19:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the logic that "move studios" equates to "basically done".
Well not sure if you were talking to me or him but just in case.
Rouge said this himself, and he also said that the Shanghai studio got the "moment to moment gunplay" down, and the reason for the move to Reykjavik is to make Nova more EVE like, and what better place to do it than the same place EVE is developed?
And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!
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7th Son 7
Hakuna Matatah Inc
1721
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Posted - 2017.04.07 19:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Do I hate waiting? YES. Will I wait forever if I have to? ABSOLUTELY.
Only your complete and total awareness is needed, nothing else will do. ----- OSHO
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Git Gud Bruh
0.P.
275
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Posted - 2017.04.07 19:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the logic that "move studios" equates to "basically done".
What aren't you concerned about Pokey?
I'm Git Gud and I'm a recovering Dust addict.
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Git Gud Bruh
0.P.
278
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Posted - 2017.04.07 19:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the logic that "move studios" equates to "basically done".
Well not sure if you were talking to me or him but just in case. Rouge said this himself, and he also said that the Shanghai studio got the "moment to moment gunplay" down, and the reason for the move to Reykjavik is to make Nova more EVE like, and what better place to do it than the same place EVE is developed? My point exactly, the game itself is finished, they're just working on the finishing touches now but god knows how long that could take. Especially if there's some group of EVE lore nerds in the back pumping out a list of features and game mechanics that they want put in the game.
Rattati or maybe it was frame said it wont have a direct link with EVE like dust did, at least for the forseeable future. So I personally don't think it should take very long to come up with a list of crap to make the game more "EVE-ish". From what I can hear in the background of Sgt Kirks gameplay footage of it, one of the devs was explaining a pretty in depth crafting system a year ago, they should be wrapping it up quite soon, if not they're simply trying to get too much candy for a nickel out of it.
I'm Git Gud and I'm a recovering Dust addict.
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Git Gud Bruh
0.P.
278
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Posted - 2017.04.07 20:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:Well Rouge said that a playable alpha could come at FF18 or before, and he said he doubts it would take as long as FF19 If the alpha doesnt come until FF18 all of you better watch out because I am gonna have some serious pent up emotion to work out on all of your clones. Core Locus Spamming Rage Heavy coming through.
I'm Git Gud and I'm a recovering Dust addict.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9140
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Posted - 2017.04.07 20:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the logic that "move studios" equates to "basically done".
Well not sure if you were talking to me or him but just in case. Rouge said this himself, and he also said that the Shanghai studio got the "moment to moment gunplay" down, and the reason for the move to Reykjavik is to make Nova more EVE like, and what better place to do it than the same place EVE is developed?
Well sure, moment to moment gameplay may be down but there is far more to work on that I wouldn't consider finishing touches.
Progression Game Modes Visual Effects (Dennie himself said the game build he played is still very unfinished visually) Maps End Game Design PvE Game Design Weapon Assets Dropsuit Assets Overall Balance Design Fine Tune Balance Sound Design Network Structure Server Structure Ect. Ect.
When he says "Moment to moment gameplay" to me that basically says "You can load into a match and the act of shooting and moving control and feels really good" but it doesn't include all of the things I listed above which are there to actually provide context and bulk to the game.
Basically the FPS part of the game may be done, but there is so much more that's not part of that but is equally critical.
EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
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XxBlazikenxX
WarRavens Imperium Eden
5633
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Posted - 2017.04.07 20:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:XxBlazikenxX wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I'm a bit concerned about the logic that "move studios" equates to "basically done".
Well not sure if you were talking to me or him but just in case. Rouge said this himself, and he also said that the Shanghai studio got the "moment to moment gunplay" down, and the reason for the move to Reykjavik is to make Nova more EVE like, and what better place to do it than the same place EVE is developed? Well sure, moment to moment gameplay may be down but there is far more to work on that I wouldn't consider finishing touches. Progression Game Modes Visual Effects (Dennie himself said the game build he played is still very unfinished visually) Maps End Game Design PvE Game Design Weapon Assets Dropsuit Assets Overall Balance Design Fine Tune Balance Sound Design Network Structure Server Structure Ect. Ect. When he says "Moment to moment gameplay" to me that basically says "You can load into a match and the act of shooting and moving control and feels really good" but it doesn't include all of the things I listed above which are there to actually provide context and bulk to the game. Basically the FPS part of the game may be done, but there is so much more that's not part of that but is equally critical. Well I don't mean that it's ready for an alpha yet.
My only point is that I don't think it will take until Fanfest 2019, and I have supporting evidence from 2 developers.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9140
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Posted - 2017.04.07 20:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
I don't suspect 2019 either. I just don't want people getting the impression that it's happening in like....A few months.
Maybe end of 2017.
EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
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XxBlazikenxX
WarRavens Imperium Eden
5634
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Posted - 2017.04.07 20:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:I don't suspect 2019 either. I just don't want people getting the impression that it's happening in like....A few months.
Maybe end of 2017. Yeah that's my guess as well.
And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!
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Djinn SouI
Molden Heath PoIice Department
304
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Posted - 2017.04.07 20:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9142
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Posted - 2017.04.07 20:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018
Also fairly reasonable. Q4 2017 or Q1 2018
EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
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TooMany Names AlreadyTaken
Going for the gold
4101
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Posted - 2017.04.07 20:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway???
#NekosForLife GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá
When you think about it, no matter how weird it seems at first, nekos are like upgraded humans
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XxBlazikenxX
WarRavens Imperium Eden
5634
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Posted - 2017.04.07 20:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway??? Almost three years? That's barely 2 years at most lol
And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9144
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Posted - 2017.04.07 21:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway??? Almost three years? That's barely 2 years at most lol
Plus like...Game Development take a while ya know.
EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
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XxBlazikenxX
WarRavens Imperium Eden
5634
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Posted - 2017.04.07 21:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:XxBlazikenxX wrote:TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway??? Almost three years? That's barely 2 years at most lol Plus like...Game Development take a while ya know.
And you get a like! And you get a like! And you, and you, and you!
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Moorian Flav
585
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Posted - 2017.04.07 21:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ranting vents frustration. I rant, you rant, everyone rants (except blue tags). I ranted a bit yesterday right after the Nova mention but I got it out and I am over it... for now. I am sure there will be more rants to come over the next year and not just from me.
I don't troll; I tell the truth.
I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
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TooMany Names AlreadyTaken
Going for the gold
4103
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Posted - 2017.04.07 22:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway??? Almost three years? That's barely 2 years at most lol You see? YOU SEE??? It feels like 3 years, I miss Dust so badly.
Wait, hold the damn horses... Wasn't Dust shut down in 2015? To spring 2018 that's almost 3 years.
You trying to mess with my brain? -.-
#NekosForLife GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá
When you think about it, no matter how weird it seems at first, nekos are like upgraded humans
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
1820
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Posted - 2017.04.07 22:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 Will Vahzz be unbanned in time for Nova... Only time will tell! |
XxBlazikenxX
WarRavens Imperium Eden
5639
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Posted - 2017.04.07 22:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:XxBlazikenxX wrote:TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway??? Almost three years? That's barely 2 years at most lol You see? YOU SEE??? It feels like 3 years, I miss Dust so badly. Wait, hold the damn horses... Wasn't Dust shut down in 2015? To spring 2018 that's almost 3 years. You trying to mess with my brain? -.- Dust was shut down on May 30th of 2016. I still remember that day vividly.
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Djinn SouI
Molden Heath PoIice Department
307
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Posted - 2017.04.07 23:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 Will Vahzz be unbanned in time for Nova... Only time will tell! We can only hope
At least he will be playing the game |
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken
Going for the gold
4108
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Posted - 2017.04.08 07:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:XxBlazikenxX wrote:TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway??? Almost three years? That's barely 2 years at most lol You see? YOU SEE??? It feels like 3 years, I miss Dust so badly. Wait, hold the damn horses... Wasn't Dust shut down in 2015? To spring 2018 that's almost 3 years. You trying to mess with my brain? -.- Dust was shut down on May 30th of 2016. I still remember that day vividly.
...it felt longer than that.
that's what she said
#NekosForLife GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá
When you think about it, no matter how weird it seems at first, nekos are like upgraded humans
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Git Gud Bruh
0.P.
281
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Posted - 2017.04.08 18:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
It feels like an eternity since Dust was shut down. Some of us had thousands of hours put into the game. I know I spent virtually every second of every day logged into Dust. Whether I was simply chatting with my corp or trading officer gear or pubstomping some scrubs. My day to day life consisted of Dust and nothing else. I can only hope CCP brings us Nova as soon as humanly possible. So yet again we put our faith in Rattati for another year in the hopes that we'll get our lives back even though we won't get our skill points and assets back.
I'm Git Gud and I'm a recovering Dust addict.
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Heimdallr69
Negative-Feedback.
7464
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Posted - 2017.04.08 23:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Luckily I haven't found a game to replace dust..however if I wait a year for it an there's no vehicles then I doubt I'll even try it |
DUST Fiend
19026
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Posted - 2017.04.08 23:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:Luckily I haven't found a game to replace dust..however if I wait a year for it an there's no vehicles then I doubt I'll even try it Thats my thing, but Im obviously heavily biased. I just dont want to get stuck with "theyll be in SOON tm" just to have a repeat of the return of Logistics vehicles :/
Old DUST Fan Fiction
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Heimdallr69
Negative-Feedback.
7465
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Posted - 2017.04.08 23:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:Luckily I haven't found a game to replace dust..however if I wait a year for it an there's no vehicles then I doubt I'll even try it Thats my thing, but Im obviously heavily biased. I just dont want to get stuck with "theyll be in SOON tm" just to have a repeat of the return of Logistics vehicles :/ I've always been infantry I'm good at both but there's dedicated vehicle players better than me so I don't get to do vehicles often (in pc) however that's what I loved about dust and BF series, the freedom to switch it up an add life to the game when it starts getting stale..lets be honest the ads was the greatest thing ever =ē+ |
Draxus Prime
Nos Nothi
5016
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Posted - 2017.04.08 23:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
October 26th, 2017. Exactly 514 days after dusts shutdown. Thats my guess
"Spilling floor cleaner only makes the floor cleaner." - Draxus Prime
Closed Beta Vet
Scout
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DUST Fiend
19028
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Posted - 2017.04.08 23:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:Luckily I haven't found a game to replace dust..however if I wait a year for it an there's no vehicles then I doubt I'll even try it Thats my thing, but Im obviously heavily biased. I just dont want to get stuck with "theyll be in SOON tm" just to have a repeat of the return of Logistics vehicles :/ I've always been infantry I'm good at both but there's dedicated vehicle players better than me so I don't get to do vehicles often (in pc) however that's what I loved about dust and BF series, the freedom to switch it up an add life to the game when it starts getting stale..lets be honest the ads was the greatest thing ever =ē+ The hatemail alone made ADS one of the best things in DUST haha. Sadly i was able to do pretty well as infantry but nothing to write home about, flying is my bread and butter. I likely would have made more of a name for myself had i actually entered the PC crowd (damn slideshows :/) or had I not always played solo.
*shrugs* Heres hoping pilots and AV are given a home in Nova, rather than tossed out on the street
Old DUST Fan Fiction
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Git Gud Bruh
0.P.
287
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Posted - 2017.04.09 04:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:lets be honest the ads was the greatest thing ever =ē+ Indeed it was. I haven't found a game with a vehicle anything even remotely like an ADS, even though I was 1000 better in a tank than I was in an ADS I had so much fun flying it. Even just spending entire PC matches flying Inc's into enemy Python's was fun lol. (Dont let me PC in and ADS)
I'm Git Gud and I'm a recovering Dust addict.
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Git Gud Bruh
0.P.
287
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Posted - 2017.04.09 04:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:Luckily I haven't found a game to replace dust..however if I wait a year for it an there's no vehicles then I doubt I'll even try it Thats my thing, but Im obviously heavily biased. I just dont want to get stuck with "theyll be in SOON tm" just to have a repeat of the return of Logistics vehicles :/ I've always been infantry I'm good at both but there's dedicated vehicle players better than me so I don't get to do vehicles often (in pc) however that's what I loved about dust and BF series, the freedom to switch it up an add life to the game when it starts getting stale..lets be honest the ads was the greatest thing ever =ē+ The hatemail alone made ADS one of the best things in DUST haha. Sadly i was able to do pretty well as infantry but nothing to write home about, flying is my bread and butter. I likely would have made more of a name for myself had i actually entered the PC crowd (damn slideshows :/) or had I not always played solo. *shrugs* Heres hoping pilots and AV are given a home in Nova, rather than tossed out on the street You've put out some of the finest ADS vids I or anyone else has ever seen, I can only hope you get to do it on Nova eventually, but I'm 100% sure there won't be any vehicles at launch.
I'm Git Gud and I'm a recovering Dust addict.
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Aderek
Made in Poland...
259
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Posted - 2017.04.13 19:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Hope never die...
dust514.pl, wcogram.pl, i-play24.net
MM proto logi
80 kk SP and growing
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Alena Asakura
Rogue Clones Yulai Federation
1416
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Posted - 2017.04.13 21:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway??? I'm sure you're aware of the "critical timeline" of all projects. This is the simple progression of tasks which are linearly dependent on the completion of the one before. There are some tasks that can be made shorter by adding more people, but beyond a certain number, you don't get any further benefit. It's kinda hard to imagine the critical timeline of something like Nova being 3 years, but throwing more people at it isn't necessarily going to make it shorter.
Quality control also tends to add enormous amounts of time to a project, usually by direct addition of time to get it right - "fat" as they usually call it. I once worked for a major organisation that had a rule of thumb for everything they did with technology - every step of the project was carefully calculated, then when everyone was happy they could do it in the time allotted, they doubled it. When they had the complete project worked out, including doubling all the individual task timelines, they would then TRIPPLE the total time. So all in all, they had multiplied the times involved by a factor of 6 and they STILL only just scraped through under the allotted time for the finished product.
Given that apparently our first sight of Nova/Dust 2.0 will be a cut-down version, I think I would have rather seen almost prototype releases as early as possible as ALPHAs to allow us to feed back to CCP the pros and cons of what they're developing. The fact they're not doing that, almost makes me think our views are going to be largely irrelevant, which seems strange unless of course they aren't going to be pitching this game to us as the primary audience. |
One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17063
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Posted - 2017.04.13 23:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
Alena Asakura wrote:TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway??? I'm sure you're aware of the "critical timeline" of all projects. This is the simple progression of tasks which are linearly dependent on the completion of the one before. There are some tasks that can be made shorter by adding more people, but beyond a certain number, you don't get any further benefit. It's kinda hard to imagine the critical timeline of something like Nova being 3 years, but throwing more people at it isn't necessarily going to make it shorter. Quality control also tends to add enormous amounts of time to a project, usually by direct addition of time to get it right - "fat" as they usually call it. I once worked for a major organisation that had a rule of thumb for everything they did with technology - every step of the project was carefully calculated, then when everyone was happy they could do it in the time allotted, they doubled it. When they had the complete project worked out, including doubling all the individual task timelines, they would then TRIPPLE the total time. So all in all, they had multiplied the times involved by a factor of 6 and they STILL only just scraped through under the allotted time for the finished product. Given that apparently our first sight of Nova/Dust 2.0 will be a cut-down version, I think I would have rather seen almost prototype releases as early as possible as ALPHAs to allow us to feed back to CCP the pros and cons of what they're developing. The fact they're not doing that, almost makes me think our views are going to be largely irrelevant, which seems strange unless of course they aren't going to be pitching this game to us as the primary audience. Good insight.
I hope you are wrong about the Alpha, and that is just taking longer to get to than they initially hoped.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Alena Asakura
Rogue Clones Yulai Federation
1421
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Posted - 2017.04.14 09:33:00 -
[36] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Alena Asakura wrote:TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:Djinn SouI wrote:Vahzz suspects the early springs of 2018 That's still almost 3 years since Dust's shutdown... I can't believe it would take so long, how small is the Nova team anyway??? I'm sure you're aware of the "critical timeline" of all projects. This is the simple progression of tasks which are linearly dependent on the completion of the one before. There are some tasks that can be made shorter by adding more people, but beyond a certain number, you don't get any further benefit. It's kinda hard to imagine the critical timeline of something like Nova being 3 years, but throwing more people at it isn't necessarily going to make it shorter. Quality control also tends to add enormous amounts of time to a project, usually by direct addition of time to get it right - "fat" as they usually call it. I once worked for a major organisation that had a rule of thumb for everything they did with technology - every step of the project was carefully calculated, then when everyone was happy they could do it in the time allotted, they doubled it. When they had the complete project worked out, including doubling all the individual task timelines, they would then TRIPPLE the total time. So all in all, they had multiplied the times involved by a factor of 6 and they STILL only just scraped through under the allotted time for the finished product. Given that apparently our first sight of Nova/Dust 2.0 will be a cut-down version, I think I would have rather seen almost prototype releases as early as possible as ALPHAs to allow us to feed back to CCP the pros and cons of what they're developing. The fact they're not doing that, almost makes me think our views are going to be largely irrelevant, which seems strange unless of course they aren't going to be pitching this game to us as the primary audience. Good insight. I hope you are wrong about the Alpha, and that is just taking longer to get to than they initially hoped. Building up expectations of earlier delivery is typically used to keep people interested, committed, hanging. Good project management determines the likely timeline and tries to stick to that. CCP at least is not telling us it's going to be come out "Soon". So they at least have learnt that it's a good idea not to raise unrealistic expectations, only to dash them when they can't deliver to those expectations. The timeline is the timeline. It will take as long as it takes so we just have to be patient. They will tell us when it's ready. I just really hope they can produce an Alpha that is playable pretty soon. |
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken
Going for the gold
4211
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Posted - 2017.04.14 11:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
Draxus Prime wrote:October 26th, 2017. Exactly 514 days after dusts shutdown. Thats my guess We can only hope for a closed alpha test by then, nothing more.
#NekosForLife GÄ¥GùÑGû¦GÇ+GÇ+GùÇGùñGÄá
When you think about it, no matter how weird it seems at first, nekos are like upgraded humans
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