DUST Search - Dust/Project Nova OOPSY

Alena Asakura wrote:

Glass Bowtie wrote:

EVE has already said no to an FPS. They tried it and didn't like it. And Dust was suppose to have a meaningful impact on Tranquility. Hell, the dream was Dust would have a MAJOR impact on Tranquility, and EVE was still not interested.

To be completely clear, EvE never actually tried it. They said they didn't want it before they even tried it. Yes, some did, like me, and stopped fairly early on because it just didn't make sense to me in those early days. But most never even looked at Dust. Many didn't even have a PS3 to do so.

I don't think it's helpful to make such broad statements. It gives a completely different perspective to look at the real reason EvE didn't want a FPS, which was they never wanted one in the first place, didn't want anyone "wasting" resources implementing ANYTHING that supported it. The only part of Incarna (the release that brought in the link to Dust) that had anything to do with EvE was Captain's Quarters, the first step in Walking In Stations, which the EvE community hated.

EvE didn't want a FPS because they never wanted a FPS, not because they tried it and didn't like it. Had the whole thing been handled better by CCP, the EvE community would not have been the target aurdience in the first place.

As for Dust having a major impact on Tranquility, that would definitely have been a major reason EvE DIDN'T want it.


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Glass Bowtie Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 36	Posted - 2017.01.08 15:38:00 - [1] - Quote I'd agree that dealing with Sony was (or at least seemed to be) a pain in the butt for CCP, although plenty of other companies get it done. But whatever, benefit of doubt and so forth. I'd also agree that obviously PC gives you way more power to work with, creating the possibility of a better game all around. That being said, while I don't think Nova would be better off (overall) on consoles, CCP has started down the same road they did with Dust. The target audience is (at least for now) EVE. OK ok, and the 24 people left on these forums. Obviously a lot could change over time, but at the moment I highly doubt anyone outside of these forums knows or cares about Nova. OK ok, maybe 24 people on the EVE forums. EVE has already said no to an FPS. They tried it and didn't like it. And Dust was suppose to have a meaningful impact on Tranquility. Hell, the dream was Dust would have a MAJOR impact on Tranquility, and EVE was still not interested. Not to say that's a bad thing, but EVE and an FPS are (obviously) 2 vastly different games, whether said FPS is near pure PvP, or mainly PvE. I just don't see CCP gaining a large/solid player base through EVE. The next logical group would be Dust, but with the move to PC they are leaving most of the possible player base behind. I know why they want to do it, I'm not saying they're doing it to be dcks, but they are throwing away quite a bit of advertising/recruiting work with the move to PC. So now they are in a position where their primary base of company loyal players has already shown total disinterest in an FPS, and their secondary base of company loyal players have been severely thinned by awful PR events, on top of an inability for most to take part in Nova even if they wanted to. That means that CCP will need to somehow harvest a community from outside of Tranquility. And with the (pretty much) one and only hook of a CCP FPS gone (EVE connectivity), I wonder just how they plan to do this. If our numbers were always too low in Dust, how do they plan on keeping Nova healthy? "We are getting the basics down" is a horrible pitch for any game, and both PC and console markets are forever flooded with competition. On the control front, having the options of a KB/M setup is, of course, better. Though a controller feels more comfortable to me personally, the options/flexibility alone that a KB/M provides make it a better control method. A moot point of course, as you can use a KB/M with the PS (3 for sure, I'd imagine 4 is the same). Yeah, they tried it with Dust, but not the right way. And on the port front, it seems to me that with the move to PC for the added power and space to work with, the resulting game would be very difficult to port to PS4, especially if Nova gets past the initial bare bones phase and starts adding content. TL:DR- I don't feel the question is "should Nova have been a console game instead of a PC game?", the question should be "does CCP know what kind of game it's making, and who they are making it for?" Which unfortunately seemed to be the same question throughout the life of Dust. My personal belief is whatever happens in Nova or EVE, CCP needs to start working on an EVE 2. I know, I know. Nobody ever likes to hear that, but too bad, I said it. EVE is old as sht, and it wouldn't be hard for someone dedicated to come along and replace it with a new model. It might as well be CCP. Put it on PC, thats fine. And I don't care about the details, progress/char transfer, whatever. That doesn't matter. What matters is CCP is sitting on a gold mine simply with an EVE 2 alone. If they develop an EVE 2 and a Dust 2 in tandem I think they could actually give us the dream that was suppose to be EVE/Dust. And they would actually be in sync with their target player base for once. In the short term I do hope Nova isn't a complete bust. I won't be participating, I'm currently focused on the grind towards home ownership, but hopefully CCP gets some solid FPS experience under their belt, maybe a bit of confidence, and if they don't dissappear after this sale deal concludes there will be a brand new universe waiting for me/us in the next 5 years or so.
Glass Bowtie Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 37	Posted - 2017.01.08 18:41:00 - [2] - Quote At this point is there a conversation we haven't had before?
Glass Bowtie Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 38	Posted - 2017.01.09 01:06:00 - [3] - Quote I'm neutral on the control option front, my fault for not making that clearer. I just don't think the stronger control option (depending on the system) should be gimped to bring it in line with the weaker control option, or vice versa. Seeing as how the game is on PC the KB/M will be the dominant control option. I prefer DS3s as well, but I don't think a game pad should be buffed and or KB/M nerfed in an attempt to create parity. This was a bit of an issue here already. On the port front, I'm far from knowledgeable in game development and software and coding and all that. I would imagine the chance for Nova to grow into something larger than could be ported is there isn't it? I'm not against a port, but while there is no certainty they ever will port, I would think there is also no certainty they would be able to port if Nova ever came together like a lot of us would like it to. On the EVE 2 front, EVE is old as sht. You can frame it how you want, but the game is old. Not a bad thing for EVE itself, it seems to still be going strong enough, and obviously a good amount of people still generally enjoy it, but (I cherry picked a couple lines from your post, kinda cheating I know lol)- Alena Asakura wrote:* but the existing players of EvE NEVER want a new concept. They basicly want whatever they have at any given time to just stay that way. That would require new functionality in EvE that the EXISTING EvE community has already said it doesn't want. Any new EvE2 product would have to first and foremost satisfy the existing EvE community because that's how it is with EvE. You're not talking about a GAME, you're talking about a CULTURE. You can't change a culture by just rolling out a new version of a game. Look I don't know nearly enough about EVE to comment on what all they could do different for an EVE 2. And that's honestly a bad title, because of this very part of our conversation. But I do agree EVE is very particular about what they want, and I do agree the culture holds total sway, and that's fine. But you can't tell me that this style, this genre of game has reached its pinacle, aside from some updates from time to time. While I understand EVE may still innovative within Tranquility itself, I think it is silly to say there is no innovation to be had outside of Tranquility. And to do that you can't be thinking about changing a culture, you have to be thinking about creating a new one just as i would think Nova intends to do. I always end up back on the same question. "Does CCP know what kind of game they are making, and who they are making it for?" EVE targets a very specific gamer, one that has partially proven in some ways uninterested in an FPS. I doubt simply putting an FPS on PC will sway the cornerstones of the EVE community. And if you aren't targeting EVE, who are you targeting? They would be entering a competitive section of gaming, saying "we have a small, generic shooter, we (as of this moment) have jettisoned literally everything that made said games spiritual predecessor unique, and we are utterly devoted to our original IP, EVE, at any and every cost". I just wonder why. If you don't intend to tie a shooter to Tranquility, don't make the shooter, stick with EVE. If you want to tie a shooter into a Tranquility type setting, start from scratch on both sides. I'm fine with an "EVE2" having to be a new concept, I see no reason to avoid creating a new community, just as I would see no reason to tie a shooter made in say 2020 to a space simple game made in, what, 2003?
Glass Bowtie Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 41	Posted - 2017.01.10 23:49:00 - [4] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Glass Bowtie wrote: EVE has already said no to an FPS. They tried it and didn't like it. And Dust was suppose to have a meaningful impact on Tranquility. Hell, the dream was Dust would have a MAJOR impact on Tranquility, and EVE was still not interested. To be completely clear, EvE never actually tried it. They said they didn't want it before they even tried it. Yes, some did, like me, and stopped fairly early on because it just didn't make sense to me in those early days. But most never even looked at Dust. Many didn't even have a PS3 to do so. I don't think it's helpful to make such broad statements. It gives a completely different perspective to look at the real reason EvE didn't want a FPS, which was they never wanted one in the first place, didn't want anyone "wasting" resources implementing ANYTHING that supported it. The only part of Incarna (the release that brought in the link to Dust) that had anything to do with EvE was Captain's Quarters, the first step in Walking In Stations, which the EvE community hated. EvE didn't want a FPS because they never wanted a FPS, not because they tried it and didn't like it. Had the whole thing been handled better by CCP, the EvE community would not have been the target aurdience in the first place. As for Dust having a major impact on Tranquility, that would definitely have been a major reason EvE DIDN'T want it. Other than me not clarifying the fact that not every single person who played EVE tried Dust, we are saying the same thing. And @Mobius, while I can acknowledge there was some support for Dust in EVE, I don't think it would be a stretch to flip the first bit of your post around to say "certain vocal members of the EVE community which makes up a tiny fraction of the actual player community did support the idea of Dust". People may have liked the concept, but as you said they were mostly apathetic as they weren't into FPSs, didn't have consoles, or maybe just didn't want to take time away from their EVE gaming. There is nothing wrong with any of that, but that doesn't equal support. I obviously cannot say what would have happened had we received a good amount of even spiritual support from EVE, but I think it's fair to say things would have been much different. The move to PC was going to happen in any scenario, but I think things would have been much different. Also, if Capsuleers were getting more info about Dust from you as opposed to CCP I think that could be considered a problem from a business standpoint. Let me say, I'm not claiming anything like "EVE gave Dust the thumbs down so CCP cut off its head". I think we can agree that EVE as a community could have done more for us here, but they were in no way obligated to. Also, I played a bit of EVE. It started off as a way to streamline OB requests, but I got into it for a couple months until my laptop died. I can totally understand the infatuation with Tranquility and the feeling of "I'm doing this for the next few years, and I don't really care much either way about other games". My problem with EVE is personal. Once Dusts death certificate was publicly signed and rubbed into our faces in 2014, that's when the EVE folks suddenly came out of the woodwork here. There was a lot of drumming up of support for CCP, a lot of people who "had been here from the beginning", yet had been completely silent until the quick, vague announcement of a new something that was going to do some stuff different, and it was going to come out sometime (that's not even Nova, that's Legion. I guess we can always say Dust was wildly more successful than Legion at least lol). We needed that support long before FF14. I know you are far more likely to find dedicated, tightnit communities on PC. I would completely agree that a good bulk of the console community is trash. But you know what, we had a dedicated community here dammit, an original community of people who loved the game, financially supported the game, who logged in every day and or night to smash our faces into a brick wall in shithole battles because deep down we loved it. Hell, I'm still here. After all that sh*t I'm still here, and I'm still just as fired up as 2 years ago, because I loved the game. We, the Dust community, needed the "support" we saw after FF14 and beyond long before we got it. Again, this is my personal issue with EVE, and you can boil it down into a neutral TL:DR as "EVE support came far too late". But all of that emotional stuff aside my point keeps getting hammered home, deeper and deeper. What kind of game is CCP making, and who are they making it for? It's not for EVE, and it's not for the former console community. It won't be tied to EVE, and I think it's more likely to say ever as opposed to soon. It will most likely be made to be able to run on lower end systems, even consoles, yet as a bare bones FPS on PC the one and only thing it would have going for it at the moment is graphics, making a theoretical port a big waste of time for everyone involved. Dust was obviously exclusively PvP (except for the battles with no one on the opposing team, which were actually pretty fun), though there was a large (and acceptable) cry for PvE. Nova at this point seems to be a bit up in the air on exactly what it is, and what the mix of PvP to PvE will be. It just seems to me CCP has been stumbling through this whole FPS debacle half asleep, apathetic if you will. I'd really have to agree with the side of EVE that says this is all wasting resources that would be much better off directed towards EVE, for no gains what so ever for anyone.
Glass Bowtie Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 41	Posted - 2017.01.11 00:18:00 - [5] - Quote I just wish we still had something to show for all the madness. Instead I have PTSD, night sweats and I have to keep my PS3 hooked up to a kidney dialysis machine or it will shutdown for good. If I look really hard I can still see the health bar and ammo count still burned into my plasma tv.