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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
2990
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Posted - 2016.10.14 01:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
I really like how CCP handled the F2P system, but was it the best option for them? Best for the community?
I've thought of an alternative and curious what the community would think. It's a bit of a combination of total free-to-play and the PLEX route of EVE.
Players would purchase a 'mercenary license' that allows them to participate in FW and PC for one month. Pubs are free. There would be different tiers of licenses with better perks for each.
(The system I've imagined if it were applied directly to Dust)
Unlicensed merc - FREE - not eligible to play FW or PC
Basic license - $1.00 OR 1,000,000 ISK - Allows players to participate in FW+PC for one month
Level 2 License - $5.00 - Allows participation in FW/PC and includes $5.00 worth of AUR
Level 3 License - $10.00 - Allows participation in FW/PC and includes $15.00 worth of AUR
Elite license - $20.00 - Like above, but comes with more goodies, and maybe a longer license duration.
You get the point.
Players would be able to purchase a stack of licenses and sell them in-game as well.
I feel this system is fair, reasonable, and encourages players to actually keep paying over time. My bro 'usuckatdust' spent $5.00 over the course of this game... That's a lot of free entertainment CCP provided to him.
Would you guys participate in a system like this?
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.14 03:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:See I personally prefer subscription based games because I feel you typically get a better value.
However FPS games are tricky...there are so many free fps games out there that it would be a hard sell for a lot of people.
But hey it's worth exploring at the very least.
So many free FPS? I can only think of PS2 off the top of my head, what other big ones are there?
I just think this is a better alternative to the F2P version of Dust.
Don't get me wrong, it was great for the players, but I think they could have got a bit more revenue in a fair way, and remained F2P without being P2W.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.14 04:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:See I personally prefer subscription based games because I feel you typically get a better value.
However FPS games are tricky...there are so many free fps games out there that it would be a hard sell for a lot of people.
But hey it's worth exploring at the very least. So many free FPS? I can only think of PS2 off the top of my head, what other big ones are there? I just think this is a better alternative to the F2P version of Dust. Don't get me wrong, it was great for the players, but I think they could have got a bit more revenue in a fair way, and remained F2P without being P2W. Well I just searched for FPS games that are also Free to Play on Steam, and I got 82 results so....yeah there are a few out there Honestly if costmetics are done right, there is money to be made there. Take a look at League of Legend's monetization model, or hell, even how Little Big Planet did most of their DLC. Im not against the *option* to have a subbed account that offers some perks at a better rate than buying stuff al la carte, but I think if you're going for a F2P model, you don't want pay walls to unlock content.
Ok, just a few things tho.
I mentioned in the original post that this hypothetical "merc license" would be ISK-purchasable as well, and for a reasonable price, so it wouldn't be a paywall.
I'm curious to check that list of 82 F2P shooters, and see if I've heard of any of them. That also goes back to my other point about how much more competition there is on PC, but let's not re-hash that :P
EDIT-------
I think the F2P model Dust had was great, however a lot of players played for years without paying a dime... that's not great from a business standpoint. I'm just brainstorming for a way to encourage players to pay continuously, without being forced to.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.14 04:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:To be fair I didnt check the entire list of results so Im sure a handful of them in there are duds, my point being there is more than just a couple options out there. I guess I just REALLY dislike the idea of buying into content like that for a game that is labled "Free to Play", even with an ISK option it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Lets not forget that largely what allowed the development of Dust to continue was the re-introduction of BPOs...mostly because of the SKIN. Im not necessarily advocating for BPOs, but I'd rather explore proper implementation of cosmetics as they have zero impact on the gameplay itself, but have been proven to be profitable. I mean I know EVE is doing the whole Alpha/Omega clone thing, but that's really meant as a glorified demo. I mean if cosmetics prove to be insufficient, then we can explore more invasive options....just...I dunno, I've been burned too many times by crappy "F2P" models that end up being more irritating than rewarding when it comes to paying to access content. Talos Vagheitan wrote: I think the F2P model Dust had was great, however a lot of players played for years without paying a dime... that's not great from a business standpoint. I'm just brainstorming for a way to encourage players to pay continuously, without being forced to.
Well....they did with Boosters. Was a really good way to get people to fork out cash monthly, worked for me for a long while.
They gotta get paid man. You bought boosters, and I started throwing cash at them towards the end of the game, but a lot of players not only played entirely for free, but also proto-stomped a hell of a lot of new players (revenue) away from CCP.
The system was abused.
There has to be a compromise. I think what I proposed above is pretty good incentive to pay on a regular basis, without being too restrictive in the process.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.14 06:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:If you're so insistent that no one get "a free ride" then just make it sub based and call it a day. Otherwise many people will always refuse to spend a cent on the game.
I'd rather have a sub than call it free to play but basically make it so you need to pay every month to enjoy the entire game. And if you offer an ISK option? People will simply use that instead and never spend a cent on the game.
Well, with what I proposed the "free ride" is certainly still an option if that's what you choose, just earn 1M ISK and you're good to go (or pay the 1 measly dollar), or also just play pubs if that's what you want. I wouldn't feel restricted at all by this.
But did you look at those tiered License options I proposed? Those would look pretty tempting to me. And if you're going to pay $1, you may as well spring for the $5 option and those extra goodies... and if you're going to pay that, then... etc.
Remember too, Dust had a very, very 'lenient' F2P system, however this game was also largely funded off EVE profits for most of it's life. There's always a catch. A game can't "just be free".
Also, I'm not sure I agree with your attitude towards having a subscription-based FPS. To my knowledge that's never happened successfully. Why would Nova be different?
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.14 06:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:I don't think we should limit people to certain areas of the game. Take EVE's Alpha Clones for example, if they wanted, they could still go into nullsec and fight for sovereignty with their respective corporations.
Not letting players go into fw/pc is the same thing as not letting Alpha Clones go into nullsec.
Note: I said in the original post players could buy this 'merc license' for 1M ISK if they wanted. You can grind that in a few matches (or just pay the $1)
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.14 06:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
XxBlazikenxX wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:XxBlazikenxX wrote:I don't think we should limit people to certain areas of the game. Take EVE's Alpha Clones for example, if they wanted, they could still go into nullsec and fight for sovereignty with their respective corporations.
Not letting players go into fw/pc is the same thing as not letting Alpha Clones go into nullsec. Note: I said in the original post players could buy this 'merc license' for 1M ISK if they wanted. You can grind that in a few matches (or just pay the $1) Sorry, I made the post late at night, I'm tired and not thinking clearly. To be honest I read the first two lines and came to a quick conclusion. I suppose your plan could work in theory.
Lol. It's all good mate. Sleep on it ;)
Cheers.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.14 17:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Alena Asakura wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:If you're so insistent that no one get "a free ride" then just make it sub based and call it a day. Otherwise many people will always refuse to spend a cent on the game.
I'd rather have a sub than call it free to play but basically make it so you need to pay every month to enjoy the entire game. And if you offer an ISK option? People will simply use that instead and never spend a cent on the game. But they do that with EvE. PLEXes are bought and sold around New Eden all the time, and they are the way the vets mostly pay for their subscriptions. It works for CCP because people buy PLEXes from CCP to sell in game to raise funds. So CCP gets their money either way. True but those sell for about a billion ISK now...which takes more than a handful of matches worth of time. Even with Alpha Clones you can still go anywhere and participate with anyone, there is no lockout of facwar or anything of the sort and largely you can train everything that makes sense for a player starting out. Do not confuse Alpha Clones as making EVE F2P. Alpha clones are simply a fancy way of saying "Un-timed demo" to give players a feel for EVE. For Nova I'd take the million ISK option over then $1 every time. Not that a dollar is much to me, but I'd be annoyed by the fact that I'm being charged just so I can play a certain match type. Id go out of my way to make sure I didn't spend real money on it just to make a point. But again I have a personal vendetta against being nickle and dimed to death just to get core gameplay features. It is absolutely the fastest way to turn me off from playing a game.
Well no problem with that, However I really don't agree it's necessary to have a vendetta against paying for a service... especially when you said you spent money anyways on the game? Anyways, the free option remains in my proposed system.
All things considered, I think the proposed system is much more offering strong encouragement to keep paying, rather than forcing players to.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.15 01:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I actually like it.
If you buy an Officer License you should get a "Supporter" tag on your forum avatar to show you are financially supporting the game.
Also, if people can buy the licenses and sell them on the open market for ISK, then CCP has the people with money in real life paying for the people who only have money in game. The 40 year old with a good job who dies too much to afford Proto suits can buy Mercenary Licenses and sell them on the open market to the 13 year old who is rocking in PC but does not have a credit card.
Love the idea of a permanent "supporter" badge for those who buy the primo package
- Edit: perhaps a unique SKIN only Officer license.holders get
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.15 05:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cool. Ill shoot you an email
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.17 03:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:As if the entry barrier for PC was not high enough already.
I feel that's more an issue of terrible NPE and complete lack of matchmaking, and a progression path littered with cliffs and plateaus.
Anyone who can't afford 1,000,000 ISK per month can't afford to do PC anyways.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.17 04:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:As of this post I have not received any emails requesting info to come onto the show. If you did send an email, please check the address and try again. You'll need some time to get set up so please send it well in advance so we can get your audio sorted out ahead of time.
Yeah, sorry, I got busy today.
Hope it went well
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.18 20:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just listened to the podcast. Good show. Wish I could have been there to clarify a few things! lol.
I'll quickly respond to a few of the points here.
The term "Walling-off" was used a lot, which really isn't accurate at all considering you could grind the 1M ISK in a few matches. And numerous other free ways to obtain. I know you guys mentioned the ISK option, but it was really overlooked overall with all the talk of 'players without credit cards' etc. One of my main objectives was to take players who are already buying AUR, and reward them more (without making it P2W).
And here's my final reasoning on this:
A game cannot just provide all of it's content for free. Dust was the best F2P model I've seen, but it was subsidized by profits from EVE ONLINE. My fear is that CCP will see the Dust model as a financial failure, and the next iteration will not be as good for us as it was with Dust.
Personally, I don't think financing the game strictly through cosmetic items is enough.
I'm trying to propose a system which preserves the benefits of Dust's system, while providing stronger encouragement for players to pay more on a regular basis, with special attention NOT to keep anything behind a "paywall".
Anyways, be careful what you wish for! The financial system CCP implements may have you wishing for a system closer to this.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.18 21:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sounds good. Let me know the next one and I'll try to make it work
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.18 22:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Selling us different merc quarters will all kinds of goodies to fill it with would be a great way to earn $$$ without interupting balance. Make them cost a **** load of ISK and make them account bound so you can't buy with cash to get ISK. Room with a view of Jita, anyone? (even if it's just simulated)
People eat that **** up
If people could join in on your room, it would encourage sales a lot.
Problem is a merc quarters would be something you purchase once. The proper business model is to encourage regular income, or in the case of a game, for players to continue paying over time.
By the end of Dust I wanted to support CCP, but literally had nothing to spend money on.
- I had the skins I wanted - I didn't need any aur items - Boosters didn't do much for me - I guess keys were the only things I wanted, and even then...
With this system I would have been happy to buy the $5 or $10 pack each month and get the bundle of goodies along with it.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.18 22:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:What, you didn't want to sink your 401k on upgrading your Warbage?
I ain't 'Murican so I don't know what a 401K is... but no, I spent $0.00 on the warbarge...
I never liked the warbarge, thought it was kind of silly that each merc apparently owned their very own warbarge. Like come on, really?
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.18 22:57:00 -
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DUST Fiend wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Selling us different merc quarters will all kinds of goodies to fill it with would be a great way to earn $$$ without interupting balance. Make them cost a **** load of ISK and make them account bound so you can't buy with cash to get ISK. Room with a view of Jita, anyone? (even if it's just simulated)
People eat that **** up
If people could join in on your room, it would encourage sales a lot. Problem is a merc quarters would be something you purchase once. The proper business model is to encourage regular income, or in the case of a game, for players to continue paying over time. By the end of Dust I wanted to support CCP, but literally had nothing to spend money on. - I had the skins I wanted - I didn't need any aur items - Boosters didn't do much for me - I guess keys were the only things I wanted, and even then... With this system I would have been happy to buy the $5 or $10 pack each month and get the bundle of goodies along with it. Well that's why for one, I suggest having a few different options, ranging from a slightly cooler merc quarters to something with multiple rooms and a really nice view. Also, it's very very far from a one time purchase. It's a one time purchase that opens the door to an endless amount of purchases. Couches, tvs, fridges, suicide booths, mirrors, air hockey tables, whatever stupid little thing they think of. If you could invite friends into the room, it would give more meaning to random purchases like that. This could also serve as an ISK sink for end game as everything bought with $$ should be available for a hefty ISK cost.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea. Customization is always good.
But I don't think enough players (in this niche shooter) will buy enough merc room stuff to have this really make any financial impact on the game. I don't know anyone who even spent money on the warbarge and that "affected gameplay"...
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.18 23:04:00 -
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DUST Fiend wrote:Talos Vagheitan wrote:I'm not saying it's a bad idea. Customization is always good.
But I don't think enough players (in this niche shooter) will buy enough merc room stuff to have this really make any financial impact on the game. I don't know anyone who even spent money on the warbarge and that "affected gameplay"...
Honestly it would probably be better in EVE since there's a lot more menu surfing in that game. I wouldn't expect something like this to carry the revenue stream, especially considering the potential cost to develop. You could even possibly have corp HQs for sale where a bunch of people could hang out. Honestly I just want to see less boosters but I know it's an easy sell for CCP so they're here to stay.
Something has to pay for the game. In our case, Dust operated at a loss for most of it's life, effectively meaning EVE paid for this game for much of it's lifespan
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2016.10.19 02:05:00 -
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DUST Fiend wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:What if player created social spaces followed a model similar to what is proposed by OP? Would give you access to dueling (1v1 me bro) or gambling, ect. Not integral to core gameplay but still something you would want to do because it's fun. Dueling would be cute but I think a 4v4 or 6v6 squad only mode could be pretty tight.
I suggested several times a CS:GO/Socom inspired game mode :
6v6, no vehicles, limited to a city socket, one life only, 9 rounds. :)
What could have been...
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2017.01.09 23:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Since monetization being discussed...
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2017.01.11 21:42:00 -
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Viktor Hadah Jr wrote:Just reread the OP and the hairs on my neckbeard stood up with rage...
Keys, can't we just get rid of these damn things. Holy f*ck does it p*ss me off to have items locked behind a lottery...
Grrrr
Was there anything you could only obtain from lockboxes?
Oh well, free game's gotta get supported somehow.
Edit: Issue also irrelevant with a player market.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2017.01.11 22:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully I can clear some of that up.
I liked Dust a lot, but CCP won't invest in it if it's not profitable. Dust was only profitable in the last quarter of it's life (or so I've read).
Dust's F2P model was very generous. Nothing was behind a 'Pay-wall', and I'm not proposing anything be put behind a pay-wall. A lack of profit will always translate into a less-developed product. If you enjoy the game then it's in all our best interests for the game to be profitable.
I went a long time without spending any money in Dust because I didn't need to. At the end I started buying things just for the sake of it, even tho I hated fitting aurum equipment. Made re-stocking a hassle.
There are a few traditional ways of paying for a game
Traditional - Purchase the game once and be done with it. Game is no longer worked on unless separate expansions added
Free to Play - Paid for by micro-transactions, "boosting" player progression (or Pay to Win) or paying to bypass paywalls
[These two options are more commonly being combined, with companies charging for the game, then holding back content as F2P-style micro transactions]
Subscription Pay a monthly fee and have regular content added indefinitely.
Based on how Dust's model was a cash-loss, it will likely be less generous than it was before anyways. I believe everybody can win tho by combining certain aspects of F2P and Subscription.
In my opinion everybody can win this way
- More money for CCP --> Better game - No pay-walls - No pay-to-win - More content for players.
Do you see any specific downsides to the system I proposed? Who does not benefit?
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2017.01.17 01:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote: If they put in a variety of SKINs of various complexity at a good range of price points, the income will pretty much take care of itself.
"If we have SKINs income will take care of itself"... probably the most naive viewpoint I've heard so far on this topic. It does not work that way.
Not everybody likes SKINs, fewer people like ALL the skins. A lot of people purchased a SKIN or two for their favorite suits, but SKINs are in now way anything close to a final solution for how to finance this game.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2017.01.17 18:45:00 -
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Echo 1991 wrote:My problem isn't paying money, while i saw your system would allow for people to buy a way to play PC using isk, which is great, I shouldn't have to pay in order to be able to take part. It's not EVE online where having a subscription makes your clone better and it stops people making ults that can just pop cynos in a risk free clone.
Cosmetic items would generate more revenue than a subscription of a $1 a month.
Sorry, but "I shouldn't have to pay" is just not valid (even though you wouldn't have to with this system, you'd basically just be encouraged to buy Aurum).
A game is a service, which requires money to develop and maintain. Cosmetics do not automatically guarantee indefinite profit.
If CCP can't profit off this game, then they won't make it at all.
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2017.01.17 20:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rather than waste time in a mult-paragraph back and forth. I'll just ask you a question.
The system we had in Dust was very generous and convenient for us players, but it didn't work. CCP lost money, therefore will not try the exact same thing again.
What do you propose then as an alternative which would be profitable enough for CCP to want to build Nova?
The basic opposition I'm getting is in fact along the lines of: "Keep the system we had, but earn money from SKINs". In fact, I've heard no other alternatives from so far. So no, my representation is correct.
1.) So what do you propose?
2.) Who specifically would not benefit from the Sub-F2P hybrid?
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Talos Vagheitan
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Posted - 2017.01.17 23:16:00 -
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Okay, thanks for the response.
So basically, you're saying leave monetization the same (since you haven't proposed any changes to that), but just improve the game and more people will play, and buy cosmetics...
That's wishful thinking, but I don't think they'll do that. The business people in charge of making money will be saying something a long the lines of: We lost money on Dust, what are we going to do differently this time?
Dust saw a spike in revenue at the end when the shiny new SKINs came out, but that's not sustainable. Once people have a SKIN, they have it forever, most aren't going to keep buying them regularly. Would you?
All I'm proposing is that players be encouraged to purchase around $5 of Aurum/month, and yet if they don't want to, it's very easy to bypass.
You also didn't answer which type of player it is who does not benefit from what I proposed.
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