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Avallo Kantor
1178
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Posted - 2016.09.16 19:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Since CCP Logicloop indicated that he still reads the forums for ideas, I thought I would share one that I felt might be beneficial or of interest for NOVA. Seeing as the forums have ... shrunk... somewhat in the last few months, I decided to put it in general discussion as not to be lost.
I also bring up this idea now, as CCP Logicloop reads the forums, and if this idea has any traction / merit, then it may affect map design.
Motivation:
In Shooters of all stripes there has always been a disconnect when certain things prove to be invincible cover. There is no shortage of examples in FPS games where a chain link fence, or a thin sheet of metal, or in some cases a cloth barrier has proven to be perfect cover against all manner of powerful firearms. This often feels ... less than realistic to put it lightly.
Meanwhile fully destructible terrain is a very challenging beast, one that requires unique level design, physics, and structure of the game as a whole. For the purpose of this argument we are going to assume that such a step is too extreme to get the performance we want to see in NOVA for it's battle sizes.
Minimal Viable Feature:
(This is a term meaning the least amount of work needed to get a feature into a product. At this point it is a feature, but lacks layers of refinement / extra options)
The breakthrough mechanic is simply the notion that certain terrain elements (Barriers, some walls, panels, etc) do NOT provide full cover, but instead interact differently with weapon fire. In all other respects these terrain elements (breakthrough cover) act as normal per terrain. It blocks visual line of sight, prevents physical movement, and is otherwise like any other terrain element. How it differs is in reacting to weapon fire, in the form of projectiles. It does one of two possible actions:
1) A damage threshold, where lower values of damage do not breakthrough. Damage is otherwise unaffected.
2) A damage reduction, where damage per bullet is reduced by a set value when it passes through. If this damage goes to 0, the cover blocks the shot.
The notable exception to the above rules is that Explosive weapons (or weapons with a splash / AoE functionality) are always stopped by breakthrough cover, treating it as a solid surface.
The idea with this is twofold: First it improves realism without a significant increase in processing power, as it allows for users to shoot through certain terrain elements without more complicated mechanics of destructible terrain. The second is that it allows for interesting map design, as breakthrough cover can open up unexpected ambush locations, defensive strongholds, or potential accidental FF as the powerful weapons rip through lesser forms of cover. It also promotes the idea of adding weaker forms of cover to the map, with the knowledge that they will no longer become an "invincible curtain"
Enhancement:
Make Breach Weapons (or another sub-type, breach just sounded coolest) have a "Breakthrough Bonus" on their weapon projectiles. This Breakthrough bonus is only applied when a projectile fires through Breakthrough cover, and then it treats the Breakthrough Bonus as damage on top of the regular damage of the firearm for purposes of checking if it successfully breaks through the cover.
Example: An element of breakthrough cover reduces all damage by 5. A normal plasma rifle only does 3 damage per projectile, so when it hits the breakthrough cover it's damage is reduced to 0, and it does not continue on.
Now a Breach Plasma Rifle shoots at the same cover. It has a damage of 3 and a breakthrough bonus of 7. It hits the breakthrough cover and for purposes of seeing it the shot continues, it has a damage of 10. The breakthrough reduction moves it to 5, and it continues on. It then can hit a player character for it's usual damage of 3. (Breakthrough bonus does not apply to any damage aside from breakthrough checks)
What do you all think of this idea? Any suggestions or criticism is appreciated.
"Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
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TooMany Names AlreadyTaken
Going for the gold
2596
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Posted - 2016.09.16 19:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
You got full support from me on this one. =b <--that's a thumbs up and a like.
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Dreis ShadowWeaver
RIP DUST 514
9495
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Posted - 2016.09.16 22:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Anyone else suspect this guy of being Rattati?
We did it for Nigel ( ; ~;)7
Come play BF4 with me on PS3! PSN: AnimeLover456
Tomoko is mai waifu
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
8527
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Posted - 2016.09.16 23:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
A very solid idea. My only concern, and it may be entirely unfounded, is the back end processing required to run the damage reduction calcs constantly. It may be non issue but that's the primary issue if there is one
EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
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DeadlyAztec11
9630
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Posted - 2016.09.16 23:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Call it "penetration" and make it a perk called FMJ
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
14185
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Posted - 2016.09.16 23:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:1) A damage threshold, where lower values of damage do not breakthrough. Damage is otherwise unaffected.
2) A damage reduction, where damage per bullet is reduced by a set value when it passes through. If this damage goes to 0, the cover blocks the shot. This could also vary by weapon. Rails might penetrate through a barrier completely provided they beat the damage threshold. If they can't beat the threshold then they do not penetrate at all.
Blasters would then penetrate through everything, but do a fraction of their base damage. Fluff explaination being the plasma lost its volatility as it burned through the barrier.
My advice to you, playa.
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Forever ETC
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1761
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Posted - 2016.09.16 23:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yes please, no more titanium boxes, trees, windows(bonus if you know what YouTuber complains about this and on what game specifically). The way Insurgency handles this is by having AP Ammo have a chance to pierce through weak cover such as Wooden doors, thin metal walls, sandbags etc.
For Nova I think it should be a bit more in depth than just having to meet a certain damage threshold, going as far as weapon type(laser, explosive etc) should also be put in place. I do agree with making Breach Weaponry(if that becomes a thing) to either have AV potential or "breaching" potential.
AmarrFTW
"The Hero got his feelings hurt for 9 hp... "
Not For Sale- Sanders 2016
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Avallo Kantor
1183
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Posted - 2016.09.17 01:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thank you for the warm reception so far.
To keep in mind I did propose this as the "minimal viable concept" which means it should be the least amount of work required to see the feature in game.
As for Pokey's concern I would lay it out this way: Most weapons in DUST, if I recall correctly, were "hit scan weapons" which is to say for all intents and purposes it draws a line between the gun outwards (normally after applying an algorithm to determine a random degree of "spread") this goes on until it hits something that the game knows will stop the projectile. (A terrain element, or another asset) All this would do, in it's minimal form, is add a third distinction to these lines that include an additional variable to the damage equation.
Depending on how it is done it would either become a simple if check or a subtraction / if check.
Worst case it would have to include a variable for the xyz coord of the location, so that a proper "bullet spark" could be rendered if the bullet hits the object.
Then, depending on design intent it could either be an array of these values (Stored as a breakthrough value and a coord) or could only be a single item you can "breakthrough" on, with a second item always stopping the projectile.
In that sense, the checks would be extremely quick to compute with effectively no additional computational time. (if checks and basic math are among the easiest operations to do)
"Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
8528
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Posted - 2016.09.17 02:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah you are likely correct that it would be non issue. I'm no programmer so I can't speak for certain, but that was really my only concern.
I do like it as it adds additional purpose for weapon damage type aside from shield/armor damage ratio. It also opens up options for role bonuses, such as a sniper with high penetration bonuses. Plus Jadek would ask for Commandos to get a bonus so they do penetrating fisting attacks.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
13201
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Posted - 2016.09.17 05:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
to a point, given the Lore scale of the weapons, penetrating crates and thin walls is entirely reasonable.
But then is having weapons slag thin walls, crates, etc, or blasting them off their supports.
I'm all for making Nova weapons feel like a train slamming into the environment, but I don't know how overall feasible that is from a development standpoint.
Shoot through? Probably a lot easier.
Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
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Cat Merc
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
20240
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Posted - 2016.09.17 11:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:A very solid idea. My only concern, and it may be entirely unfounded, is the back end processing required to run the damage reduction calcs constantly. It may be non issue but that's the primary issue if there is one
We've had computers run this calculation since the late 90's. Counter Strike 1.6 had such a system.
I doubt it would be a real problem computationally. The problem would be game design if anything.
Easy PC building guide
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Cat Merc
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
20240
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Posted - 2016.09.17 11:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fantastic post Avallo, nothing i hate more in games than a thin sheet of plywood stopping my 50 cal round as if it was nothing.
Easy PC building guide
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Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
554
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Posted - 2016.09.17 14:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sorry to kind of complicate things but I think if penetration/breakthrough was implemented, different weapons should have better penetration than others (instead of just taking standard percentage of the damage). Such as, what do you think would have the greater penetration capability through a thin surface, a AR or a laser rifle? If there was a way to implement weapons with a different penetration ratio from others than the weapons would be more diverse where you would have to look at more than simple dps and handling.
Of course, getting into penetration might complicate area effect weapons such as mass drivers, grenades, and forge guns but if done right, it would greatly enhance them.
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