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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
650
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Posted - 2016.01.25 15:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Medical Crash wrote:I thought CCP nerfed myos a while back? CCP increased their PG cost. I believe the logic was this would require players to sacrifice more tank to be able to fly through the air like mario. It is still possible to create fittings with three myofibs though... and since when you are jumping you instantly gain high ground advantage, the lack of a tank is a tiny inconvenience for the MD/PLC myofibing elite.
The jumping is annoying when used in direct combat situations as instant strafing, regardless of if the person is using splash damage weaponry...they just happen to be able to kill peoples easier with weapons that do splash.
On the other hand, the jumping gives access to numerous areas that previously required a dropship in order to access, giving a way to clear them without the need of calling in a dropship to be denied by heavy AV presence. It also allows for different and odd positioning for engaging enemies from...a feature I find very useful when trying to snipe in the field.
Overall, I think the main issue with the Myofibril Stimulants as they are is the advantage given by having weapons active, and the speed at which they take off into the sky, combined with the time they remain in the sky. If they where less floaty...I don't think it would be as big of an issue, but that's neither here nor there, the easiest way to fix them IMO would be to make them equipment, using the "cortex" like the cloak does.
Although that isn't the only method...others include just making it impossible to fire a weapon whilst airborne...although I'm not a big fan of this one...perhaps if it was weapon by weapon?
The other part of them being brought up as an "issue" is the melee damage, although I'm not sure to what degree melee itself is an issue, I am willing to admit that, although being The Stay Puft One-Punch-Man is fun, it's not necessarily the most balanced thing in the world...and maybe Commando Damage is fine as part of their hat...maybe other melee damage needs looked at, maybe base melee damage and myofibril effect on it across the board needs looked at
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
652
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Posted - 2016.01.25 20:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:Ggg Hjjhk wrote:Point being camped by heavys with reps? Ppl spawning on an out of the way link? Did someone spawn on the link u tried to smash? Or is it a rabbit hole only 2 ways in map? One Punch MandoMan is here! He takes the hvys out with one punch! He jumps to punch the uplink up high. He just spawn killed ur ass Hurrah!! So when the enemy has the point And nothing seems to get them out, Blow up the REs u just placed Hurrah!
Dont know why I did but I did.n it really is fun To jump around n try to punch someone in Proto. Which is why I believe They are fine. Honestly with so many other things wrong Why complain about one things that ppl use.
I dont like how someone can hack the point in 1 second, How everyone and their mom uses Proto for a Public match, Or how NO ONE wants to let an Lav just drive around n mess with ppl
But that's the game and it makes it different. So lets ***** about something that needs fixed...like Proto in pubs :D Jk
Actually, jumpy mandos are quite easy to take out with any kind of hmg. If you get killed by one, it's your fault for not having spatial awareness.
Or...if the commando had a setup like this: Commando Ck.0 2x Complex Myofib 1x Advanced Myofib 2x Complex Profile Damps 1x ARR 1x SR 1x Cloak Field
...ok...it kinda sucks, but it's hilarious for getting into a point an causing trouble...particularly if the defenders don't have Logi or Scouts around for passive scans xD
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
654
|
Posted - 2016.01.25 20:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:/puts on protective armor
I honestly don't see anything wrong with myos. I don't have a single suit with myos on them and while the jumping is hard to get used to, it's trained me to get better with my weapon and better with vertical aiming.
Myos have helped my gungame improve, no because I use them, but because other people do. I view Myofibral Modules as unhealthy for the game as opposed to unbalanced/unfair. They simply reinforce how unbalanced verticality is in this game. Players are able to get to areas they shouldn't be able to tossing grenades and firing wildly with weapons that should have enough force to toss them back through the air when fired. Moreover it allows the placement of uplinks and equipment in areas that are otherwise impossible for the common infantryman to get to due to the glaring lack of logically placed maintenance stair wells and elevators.
As much as I like myos for exactly the reason you listed...yeah, most of the maps/sockets aren't really designed with verticality in mind...some of them aren't bad...and in some cases (as I've previously stated) they let you take out uplinks placed by dropships...but there is a distinct lack of small stairwells...elevators...moar ladders
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
656
|
Posted - 2016.01.26 09:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:Ggg Hjjhk wrote:Point being camped by heavys with reps? Ppl spawning on an out of the way link? Did someone spawn on the link u tried to smash? Or is it a rabbit hole only 2 ways in map? One Punch MandoMan is here! He takes the hvys out with one punch! He jumps to punch the uplink up high. He just spawn killed ur ass Hurrah!! So when the enemy has the point And nothing seems to get them out, Blow up the REs u just placed Hurrah!
Dont know why I did but I did.n it really is fun To jump around n try to punch someone in Proto. Which is why I believe They are fine. Honestly with so many other things wrong Why complain about one things that ppl use.
I dont like how someone can hack the point in 1 second, How everyone and their mom uses Proto for a Public match, Or how NO ONE wants to let an Lav just drive around n mess with ppl
But that's the game and it makes it different. So lets ***** about something that needs fixed...like Proto in pubs :D Jk
Actually, jumpy mandos are quite easy to take out with any kind of hmg. If you get killed by one, it's your fault for not having spatial awareness. So we all need to be wearing HMGs all the time??? Let me tell you when the mando jumps over the wall behind you and punches you for 1300 DMG you don't have time to eat through the 900 HP he has. Its one punch and its BULLSHIT. Risk and reward are the basis for this game. There is no risk in being tanky, mobile, and having the ability to carry 3 OHK weapons/equipment/melee on you. Not to mention you can also have the MD as back up if you want. Most of us want to play a tactical SHOOTER. There is nothing tactical about myos right now. They are just EZ mode for kids with no aim or ability to actually move tactically. They don't need to. They carry the firepower, suppression, cover, and escapes with them. 1114.5 Damage actually
oh, and a commando could theoretically carry 4 OHK weapons/equipment/melee with them in that scenario
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
663
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 05:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:Screw the 20 people that liked this thread. All of you are idiots that obviously need to train your gun game.
Yes I'm well aware I like this thread too, but that's because I can't help it. You like most of these scrubs talking are bad at Dust. Myos need seperation from the current jump / melee crutch that has been created. Vertical movement while cloaked combined with the ability to melee 800+ hp with 1 strike while still cloaked is for people without gungame. Best example is Romulus. He gets 20 or 30 kills a game without using a gun, and yet if he were to use a gun like most of this breed they get wrecked. The problem is that myos have both melee and jump. These mods fit the high side, they dont cost much. This allows the Gal Assault for example to triple stack myos, then go to the low side throw on a damp, kin kat for speed, cardiac reg for all your stamina needs and still have 2 slots for whatever, usually tank. Now you are on the bridge fighting from Alpha to Delta. Fast jumpy fit gets the flank thanks to those low mods, and has your six. Are you telling me HONESTLY that the kills he will get in that position are equal in ANYWAY to the same kills a nova knife or shotgun would get? Wheres the reload? The sound vs shotty? The ability to by pass radar as you come in vertically, landing on targets and dispatching them faster than NK can charge? I have not even gotten to the TTK aspect. 1 melee vs half my clip in cqc. Then there is the direct advantage of high ground. No you can NOT put a flux anywhere I can jump too. This is either a statement of ignorance or a lie. There is a direct relationship to being able to seize highground and control it and winning. If everyone has to get in a DS and fly it is even steven, but when 1 team can jump into those positions and the other can not it is a distinct advantage . I have also noticed how this leads to faster AV platorms being setup. Less combat for those positions. And less role for DS to perform. Why fly when you can hop. The next issue is server stability. Does jumping alot affect this? YES!! What about when said jumper is lagging, i.e. Mexico City is always a good example. How is it ok that a guy in front of me can jump 180 degrees behind faster then my controls allow me to turn.? Many of these jump failures use it when gun are owning them. Think about that implication. Lastly JUMPING IS FUN. But it needs balance and impartial vets who want a great SHOOTER. You forgot to mention that melee is very glitchy and many times it will not even register damage because you know what its range is. 0.5 METERS. 0.5. And you say I'm bad, but I wreck most people with just my starter fits, never mind if I get my proto out. So next time you want to say I'm bad, say it to my face in your officer assault, and I'll be sure to bring my recon suit, because I don't need proto to kill you. Im not going back and forth. But any merc that NEEDS melee/jump to beat my gun is by definition bad at SHOOTING. If you dont need it then it doesnt apply. Stop jump melee for a week see what happens to your stats? If they go up im wrong, if they go down you NEEDED it. For the record I NEVER run officer gear, never have except in PC and then it was HMGs That is not true at all. First of all, I'm not skilled into myos at all nor have I ever used one post-buff. I can tell you that people who melee do it because it is hard and they need a challenge. I myself find melee helpful for when I get an enemy down to low health and I ran out of bullets in my submachine gun or ion pistol. I get quite a substantial amount of melee kills without modifiers, so don't group me into the myo group.
Melee FTW! One of my favorite parts of a Commando suit is the higher than normal melee damage, using myos to boost it up both gives me a very close range anti-sentinel weapon (which only sometimes works) and a tool to position myself to provide good overwatch, or the ability to jump over someone's head to get behind them, or around them.
My favorite challenge is shotgun scouts...I like to try to punch them before they kill me with their shotgun, its always been a challenge, but it is so much fun when I pull it off.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
665
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 23:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:Another issue I am seeing lately with the jumpy myo fits is the overall time it takes to actually kill them. If I have you in my reticle the typical nonmyo scrub takes less than 2 seconds to kill. As soon as the myo scrub starts jumping around I have to dedicate many more seconds to kill them. This leaves you vulnerable and preoccupied for precious seconds that usually results in someone else on their team/squad killing you even if they don't. You cant ignore them, especially with the OHK melee potential. So, you are stuck trying to hit a guy that is actually in the wide open as if he had cover. During that time you are often having to move out of your own cover to avoid splash damage or OHKs. Tactical shooters are supposed to reward tactical play. If you move to the flank or better cover position you are supposed to be rewarded with the advantage. Instead you can run a myo fit and never have to actually worry about position. The game was not designed for this level of vertical movement, and the steady increase of myo use in the game shows that the only real adaptation to counter them is to run them. The warping of the metagame is itself not healthy.
I, like some others have mentioned, want to play a tactical SciFi FPS. Not Mike Tysons Punchout, Duck Hunt, or Halo. That means that melee and AV/splash weapons should not be taking center stage. At best they should be marginally successful play styles that allow those that want to play them the opportunity. They should not be on par with the role of a front line assault suit with a rifle. Otherwise, from even a flavor perspective the game makes no sense. It would be like ramming becoming the most viable tactic on EVE instead of actual weapon fire. Spears were used to get advantages over clubs, bows to get advantage over spears, and in the future I am pretty certain that assault weapons would be meant to be more effective than a melee punch from some laggy scrub abusing speed to avoid hit detection.
To complicate matters the scrubs are often in loyalty or cheap suits, their risk is much less than the 250k suit they just appeared out of nowhere on or OHKed with a Plasma cannon because they were on high ground that they normally would not be able to reach.
Its not a matter of aim. Its a fit that exploits the level design, weapon design, hit detection, and sensitivity speed of the game. You may like it or hate it, but those are the simple facts. It is an unintended exploit that allows players to gain an advantage. Anyone who actually plays this game and denies it is simply a liar and needs the crutch. Speed=bad hit detection on this game and that jump speed is much faster than any run speed and you can shoot while doing it. That's why guys have any success with the myos and KinCats. Its not skillful play ITS BAD HIT DETECTION. Moving back and forth while still in my reticle is still in my reticle and should produce damage as I fire. Unfortunately it does not and even if you do miss a few melee attacks the quantity is nothing compared to the number of rounds ignored while abusing the exploit. Just take a look at the current Mk.0 shotgun build. That one does not even need myos. Just KinCats to break hit detection so badly they can cross 40 meters under fire and still gun you down with a shotgun. Biotics right now are not in a healthy place for the game, unless hit detection can be fixed.
Well...to be fair...bumping ships is (or at least was) an extremely viable tactic in EVE, and if there was ramming damage, people would min-max fits specifically to use it regardless of its viability simply because they could (which is my view on melee in dust...I use it not because it is viable, I perform much better at a distance in all cases...instead I use it because its more fun, and more of a challenge).
As for the actual substance of your argument(s).
...yes, you are kind of right in your progression...but there are a few things you are neglecting in your reasoning... 1: We are in Fully Powered Exo-Skeletons that enhance the wielders strength and survivability significantly. It is not unreasonable to think that, alongside weaponry in general getting more powerful, that the idea of increasing armor on the hands of the suit in order to use them to do damage through the armor (in a similar way to maces or poleaxes of medieval times) would be considered, at the very least as a backup option.
2: Also expanding on your progression...yes...Service Rifles are designed to give infantry an advantage over sidearms, which in turn give an advantage over melee fighters...but by that same logic, the Heavy Machine Gun should be better still than the Service Rifles, as they are designed to give an equipped weapons team (or in this case specialty frame) an advantage over infantry equipped with Service Rifles...and then Small Turrets should be even better, as they are designed to take out said heavy infantry, and large turrets even moreso...certain things must be given up in the name of making different strategies viable from a gameplay perspective, and while we are far from a proper balance equilibrium in this case, no...service rifles shouldn't be "just better" than any other option on the field, just more reliable for lack of a better term.
3: BPO's have thrown off Risk vs Reward for quite some time now, and I don't think that's going away any time soon (unless...)
4: I will grant you that bad hit detection and level design not meant to handle verticality in play effectively (although we have been experiencing issues with both long before jump boost was added to myo's). In this case, the lower the RoF the weapon, the better time it has dealing with targets like that (in testing with the Burst HMG, I found after a case study of 20 matches, that an approx average of 2/3 of the shots "Blue-Shielded" on the enemy...was higher vs mobile targets (75-95% of shots blue-shielding).
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
665
|
Posted - 2016.01.27 23:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cont...
4 Cont...: whereas vs stationary targets >10% of the shots "Blue-Shielded." The Faster the Target was moving, the more shots failed to register as hits, despite visually appearing as such...even if the person was just rapidly moving back and forth accross the screen (Strafing)
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
668
|
Posted - 2016.01.28 10:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC wrote:ROMULUS H3X wrote:Infinite Stupidity. This fine specimen of mental delusion. The amount of "love-letters" this guy has sent me is rediculous. I have even seen him jumping around with a mass driver recently and trying to get melee kills... It was a sad sight because he ended up leaving battle (As always) after his "melee/jumping" was destroyed. Oh, it's so easy to run a paper thin suit and get skeet shot out of the sky every-time you want to jump over a 2 inch curb that would completely stop your movement.. People really fail to bring up the negative side of being forced to jump at your maximum height when they want to go around knocking blocks off.
Next, Infinite Stupidity.... you have NEVER TAKEN 1 MELEE HIT AND DIED FROM ME... you always stack so much HP, has always taken at least 2-3 punches (if they even land, which i have to get within a meters distance to achieve)
He actually has the audacity to carry around a rifle that can EASILY terminate a clone from 80m-0m, then go around and complain when you got knocked out? ... there are many max myo Commando MK0s out there that can do 1200hp of melee damage... 1114.5 Damage, not a significant difference true, but it should be rounded down to 1100 damage, or if you must round up, 1115/1120 damage...
Note: I'm not disagreeing that this is a huge amount of damage, just want to make sure the information is accurate
But as to the balance thing you said...I feel it is more important to balance them against other high slot modules, rather than the biotics group (which other than Myos, reside in the low-power slots...and should be balanced vs other low power slot modules)...but then again, all modules need to be balanced on the whole as well, so I don't necessarily disagree with your point
But yes...numerous things need to be resolved with jumping, some balance, some performance. Some of it is people need to recognize that verticality in gameplay is not necessarily inherently "non-tactical," (not saying that current myos don't break that, just that the concept of being able to jump very high and hit hard isn't out of place for a sci-fi tactical shooter), nor would it be unnecessarily unreasonable to have a melee weapon be considered a primary offensive option in a tactical shooter, even if that melee weapon happened to be integrated onto the highly advanced exoskeleton itself (as with how current things are...I don't view melee as being all that dissimilar to the current "Shotgun" design)
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
678
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Posted - 2016.01.28 21:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:Bull **** 1000 ehp
I would figure more like 600-800 MAXIMUM
1000+ total HP fit is possible on a triple myo modded Proto Min or Calmando, if you use both the low slots for armor plates rather than any biotics. 961 hp with a Complex Cardiac and Plate on a Proto Calmando.
(remember, base HP before skills on Commandos are 620, 650, and 680. 775, 812.5, and 850 with skills)
So if you fit Armor instead of biotics...the estimate of HP by BARAGAMOS isn't too far off.
(Although, for melee Commando suits, you typically want a Cardiac and KinCat)
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
678
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Posted - 2016.01.28 21:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Soto Gallente wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:Bull **** 1000 ehp
I would figure more like 600-800 MAXIMUM 1000+ total HP fit is possible on a triple myo modded Proto Min or Calmando, if you use both the low slots for armor plates rather than any biotics. 961 hp with a Complex Cardiac and Plate on a Proto Calmando. (remember, base HP before skills on Commandos are 620, 650, and 680. 775, 812.5, and 850 with skills) So if you fit Armor instead of biotics...the estimate of HP by BARAGAMOS isn't too far off. (Although, for melee Commando suits, you typically want a Cardiac and KinCat) Why would anyone put a plate on a melee fit? That is an unreasonable assumption and NO ONE would ever do that if they wanted to use it for meleeing.
You could fit two Ferroscale Plates and get a similar effect to a single plate...note I'm not saying that it was typical, far from it on most melee fits, but it is possible
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
678
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Posted - 2016.01.28 21:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
BARAGAMOS wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:BARAGAMOS wrote:Soto Gallente wrote:Bull **** 1000 ehp
I would figure more like 600-800 MAXIMUM You realize the base suit has 775 before you even add a ferroscale right? Sure, but you wouldn't add a ferroscale to a melee Minmando/Calmando in the first place. Stop bringing up irrelevant things, no one uses plates on melee commandos unless they are complete idiots. Read the revised post. Its not about JUST melee. Its the play style in general. You just keep getting hung up on the melee version for some reason.
In response to your revised Post:
...High Jumps are something that exist...and should factor into your tactical planning, similar to accounting for the possibilities of someone using an ADS (Or dropping in from a Dropship for that matter)...they aren't typical, but you should plan on them being something possible to happen. You could say that they used a fitting choice (Strategic/Tactical) and proper positioning (Tactics), and combine it with knowledge of the map(s), they negate your choice in tactical positioning. (While it isn't completely the case, as they can continue to jump for quite a while to also make them difficult to hit/difficult for hits to register).
Basically what I am saying is that Myofibril Stimulants/Jumping is a Tactic/Tactical Choice...albeit not one that is properly balanced at the moment.
As for the On-Hit Kill...the only one unique to the Commando is Melee...it just so happens that a Commando could fit for high Melee, Plasma Cannon(s), and Remote Explosives all at once (although, I have never seen...nor really considered using such a fit in actual gameplay)
As for the speed of jumping...I need to test that (at some point...I've got to also test the stacking on Krin's Damage Mod...but FW is way too laggy at the moment to attempt testing).
Edit: and yes...I'd prefer a Jump Pack equipment piece to the current jumping mods...or better yet a Jetpack xD
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
#PortDust514 ...Preferably to both PS4 and PC
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