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![[Veteran_Riffix Dathmor]](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png "[Veteran_Riffix Dathmor]")
[Veteran_Riffix Dathmor]
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Posted - 2012.06.25 22:41:00 -
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I wasn't sure whether this is general or Feedback/Requests but it seemed to have both and I thought Feedback/requests might solicit a better discussion.
As it stands now, I feel like death and associated respawning has some major problems. Some for gameplay but I am going to focus on how it affects immersion. Before I go into them I want to preface with the fact that I am only bringing these up because supposedly Dust 514 is supposed to be more than a traditional shooter game. It is supposed to be based in a PERSISTENT world that has established lore and that your actions as a Dust 514 player have meaningful impact.
So problems:
- When I die and am looking down on the battlefield choosing where to "spawn", where am I? Am I in heaven? If I'm in Heaven how does my angel self interact with cloning technology? Have I reawakened on the MCC and am choosing where to drop? If that is true why are there only certain places I can drop? Am I in one of the battlefield clone facilities? Am I simply choosing if I want to go back to sleep and wake up in a different one? None of these is acceptable or makes any sense and flys in the face of the lore.
- When I respawn in a team deathmatch game, why is it out of thin air? How did I get there? Was my ghost wandering around looking for a quiet place to assume corporeal form? If all this magic can happen, why is there a limit to how many times I can do it? Will the Ghostbusters shut us down if we do it too much? Again, no sense.
- When I get shot/stabbed/blown-up, why do I sit there unable to move or do anything? Am I dead then? If I'm dead why do I have to further indicate that I want to die. Is the reaper extremely busy and needs me to ring the bell for him? Am I just wounded and in fact, not dead? If I am wounded, why can I not try to crawl to safety or otherwise call for help? Why can no one help me? I believe this is actually only because stuff is not finished yet but I've included it in case they DON'T plan on addressing this.
- When I am in my quarters, where am I? In a station? In the war barge? On the MCC? How did I get into this room? Did I wake up on the bed? Did I wake up in a clone chamber? Did I screw up and enter someone else's room without asking?
- When I enter the war room, where am I? In a station? In the war barge? On the MCC? Is this place the same place my quarters were? Did I walk down the hall or clone-jump? Why am I standing in this room? Did someone tell me there was a good party about to happen and then I showed up and there was no beer? Is the planet outside the window the one I am about to fight on?
- When I go to enter combat, how am I getting to said combat? Am I riding the MCC there? Am I clone jumping to the MCC? Clone Jumping to the Planet? Once this gets tied to EVE will I only be able to fight on planets where the War Barge is? Will I get to blissfully clone-jump anywhere in the galaxy because I want instant action?
Now, only the devs can actually answer most of these questions but unless someone can convince me otherwise, my assessment is that these things are like this because that is how it is done in other shooters. Maybe CCP feels the game needs to resemble other games in the genre in order to help adoption. I disagree, especially at the expense of the integrity of their world, but maybe that's what they think. I could go on AT LENGTH about why immersion is good and important, especially in this game. Instead I will condense it and simply say that when you are dealing with a persistent world, your EXPERIENCE MUST BE PERSISTENT and consistent. You should always be somewhere in the world.
Things I think would help both immersion and gameplay:
- Eliminate spawning out of thin air. You should wake up in a CRU (or on MCC) naked, choose your loadout, let the nanites do their thing, and then you walk (or drop) out ready for battle. (as a side note this would help to eliminate the pointless and arbitrary respawn timer because these things could take up the time).
- DO NOT give players the ability to choose where they respawn. Where they respawn should be a function of what is going on in the battle (how far MCC has advanced, proximity of CRU to your squad, etc). If you want to imply that they are waking up on the MCC and choosing a drop point or want to give them some tactical freedom by allowing them to choose a new place to wake up after respawning then fine but you need to show this visually or it is BS.
- Change the team deathmatch mode from random spawn points to fixed location CRUs. If you think this could lead to spawn camping then give the CRU healthy auto-guns. TEAM deathmatch would be way more interesting if 2 teams are trying to push on eachother from established sides of the map rather than the random clusterf%uck it is now. If you want randomness, create a single elimination deathmatch and have the players drop into the map randomly.
- Make CRUs BIGGER. Right now there is no logical justification for how many bodies come out of them. That or give them a finite limit and then allow more to be dropped in. Or, if we are dropping from the MCC, just make them a landing pad.
Alright time for discussion. Agree? Disagree? +1?
P.S. I welcome any devs to tell me what parts of my assessment are still WIP and subject to change so I know not to be concerned or continue to bring them up. I do not welcome people telling me the whole game is WIP and to STFU because the whole point of this forum is to voice POTENTIAL concerns before they turn into actual concerns. |
[Veteran_Asno Masamang]
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Posted - 2012.06.25 23:04:00 -
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Greetings,
Riffix Dathmor wrote:When I die and am looking down on the battlefield choosing where to "spawn", where am I? ... None of these is acceptable or makes any sense and flys in the face of the lore.
Actually, you are back on the warbarge choosing which CRU you wish to reconstruct you. It is actually quite within the lore of New Eden and CCP has gone even further and created a video that explains this in a bit more detail.
Quote:When I get shot/stabbed/blown-up, why do I sit there unable to move or do anything? Am I dead then? If I'm dead why do I have to further indicate that I want to die.
You are not actually dead and are instead bleeding out. During this phase you can still be brought back by a medic, but there are very few of those right now and they do not know where you are to revive you. Once you bleed out, are killed, or you press the circle button, then you re-awaken back on the warbarge, however, you are contractually required to re-enter the burn-zone so you can't get up and walk around the barge unless you leave the battle which entails removing your clone link.
Quote:When I enter the war room, where am I? In a station?
You never actually leave your home, but your conciousness transfers to the war barge (Your quarters) and then to the MCC (The War Room), depending on where you wish to awake at. The closest thing we have in EVE is clone jumping, but the Dust mercenary nanites are much more advanced. Again this is covered a bit in the video that CCP created.
The rest of your commentary makes about as much sense as your questions. You obviously asked them for a real reason, but your stated reasons are basically nonsensical. You provide these "proposals", but most of them are already in the game or already publicly acknowledged by CCP that these will be in the game. You ask about the Dust lore, well watch the video, read the book... All of these questions are answered there.
Yes the respawn mechanics need some work, CCP is aware of that and are working on it... |
[Veteran_Riffix Dathmor]
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Posted - 2012.06.26 03:18:00 -
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Asno Masamang wrote:
The rest of your commentary makes about as much sense as your questions. You obviously asked them for a real reason, but your stated reasons are basically nonsensical. You provide these "proposals", but most of them are already in the game or already publicly acknowledged by CCP that these will be in the game. You ask about the Dust lore, well watch the video, read the book... All of these questions are answered there.
I find it really interesting that you recognize that I was making a point and yet the point itself (and the sarcasm) somehow missed you. The point I was making was indeed about nonsense. Yes, you can justify a lot if the player connects the dots for you or pulls from some information from out of the game, but my point was that the actual in-game experience does not feel consistent or persistent or even in-line with the lore.
I understand that in some cases what is supposed to be happening (like with bleeding/medics like I acknowledged) is not finished and that CCP is working on it. But the point of feedback forums is to lend our feedback. To let them know what we think and perhaps where to focus their efforts. You say that CCP has "publicly acknowledged" many of these issues and said they are working on it but I think you are exaggerating that heavily. I've seen very little where any CCP dev has said exactly what they are working period, let alone about this issue. Perhaps you can share where you have seen these acknowledgments? I don't find much using the dev post tracker, haven't seen much in any of the public videos including dev interviews. Perhaps you can tell me which magic video explains how all these parts of the experience work together? I don't see anything like that on the CCP youtube channel.
I've read the book and the book has next to zero info that explains the functioning of this game. It contains no war barges, MCCs, or even dust soldier clone jumping. In the book the soldier dies, wakes up in the CRU (he did not choose which one to spawn at), grabs his weapon and walks out into the fight.
Asno Masamang wrote:
Yes the respawn mechanics need some work, CCP is aware of that and are working on it...
And this is how we make them aware of things that need work and perhaps give them ideas on HOW to work on it. I did have suggestions afterall. What are yours? I'm just trying to start a discussion about immersion get people's ideas about how it can be improved. |
[Veteran_Corvus Ravensong]
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Posted - 2012.06.26 06:28:00 -
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The immersion is alredy there for those who want it - there are stories that cover the clone and conciousness transfer process, assuming the player is interested enough to bother reading them. The players who don't give a damn about that stuff don't have to sit through it.
(Hell with the amount of bitching about issues that the devs already had posted as fixed and aawaiting new new build, I wonder how some of these guys can type, 'cause they damn sure don't read......) |
[Veteran_Baal Roo]
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Posted - 2012.06.26 06:56:00 -
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If I understand the OP correctly, he's saying that the world of Dust 514 should feel like it's alive, mostly through clever animation sequences that occur during transitions in order to make things feel smoother and more immersive. They say it's a AAA title, so they need to do this stuff to live up to that sort of standard. We're talking about a console that plays Uncharted, Heavy Rain, God of War.... even DCUO or Little Big Planet has some pretty epic immersion at times. AAA titles on PS3 usually shoot for pretty heavy immersion and it would be a mistake not to strive for that with Dust IMO. As long as it doesnt get in the way of gameplay of course. |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.26 07:04:00 -
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^^^
I agree.
I agree with Riffix as well: we should not spwan out of thin air, that s categorical.
It defies the purpoe of having CRU and also EVE have no materialization. |
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