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Medical Crash
Systematic Engineers Unlimited
410
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Posted - 2016.01.04 04:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Meee One wrote:No,the main thing that lead to the "overbalance" (OP) scouts was that they had enough innate dampening/eWAR built-in that they could stack eHP and break hit detection.Stealth and health,one had to go.
You're right on this point. Precisely as you said, there was a time when Scouts could stack plates and benefit from strong innate EWAR. Scouts proposed a couple different solutions to this problem, either of which would've worked. One proposed solution was to assign efficacy bonuses to EWAR modules, such that there would be no innate EWAR bonus for Assault Lite. Another proposed solution was to increase the movement penalties for plates when equipped by Scouts, or otherwise restrict plate usage on Scouts, which would've absolutely detered Assault Lite. Instead of rolling out a fix targeted at the problem (Assault Lite), CCP decided to nerf Scout EWAR across the board. Assault Lite actually weathered this nerf better than other Scout playstyles. EWAR Scouts and Biotic Scouts (playstyles which have existed since Beta) have been largely phased out of competitive play. AM Scouts are now a joke. Intraclass parity -- which was found w/HF Charlie -- has once again been lost. To add insult to injury, CCP turbobuffed the GalLogi at the same time that they nerfed Scout EWAR. "We're nerfing Scout EWAR because permascan is bad. We're also introducing a new, more efficient form a permascan."
Mistakes were made. How to fix? #1. First and foremost, fix active scans (i.e. GalLogi permascan). #2. Make passive scans less bad (or) find a new job for the AM Scout. #3. Finetune Falloff mechanics (or) rework EWAR.
Have you seen the cooldown times of the scanners? The guy scanning sacrifices EQ slots to keep scans up. Also, the Duvolle Focused is very very hard to use, as the scanning angle is tiny, and the duration is like 7.5 seconds with GalLogi bonus(can't remember but has like a 45 second cooldown?!?!?!).
Scanners have been shat upon more then enough. Be gone with you I say.
My YouTube Channel
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Medical Crash
Systematic Engineers Unlimited
410
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 04:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Medical Crash wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Meee One wrote:No,the main thing that lead to the "overbalance" (OP) scouts was that they had enough innate dampening/eWAR built-in that they could stack eHP and break hit detection.Stealth and health,one had to go.
You're right on this point. Precisely as you said, there was a time when Scouts could stack plates and benefit from strong innate EWAR. Scouts proposed a couple different solutions to this problem, either of which would've worked. One proposed solution was to assign efficacy bonuses to EWAR modules, such that there would be no innate EWAR bonus for Assault Lite. Another proposed solution was to increase the movement penalties for plates when equipped by Scouts, or otherwise restrict plate usage on Scouts, which would've absolutely detered Assault Lite. Instead of rolling out a fix targeted at the problem (Assault Lite), CCP decided to nerf Scout EWAR across the board. Assault Lite actually weathered this nerf better than other Scout playstyles. EWAR Scouts and Biotic Scouts (playstyles which have existed since Beta) have been largely phased out of competitive play. AM Scouts are now a joke. Intraclass parity -- which was found w/HF Charlie -- has once again been lost. To add insult to injury, CCP turbobuffed the GalLogi at the same time that they nerfed Scout EWAR. "We're nerfing Scout EWAR because permascan is bad. We're also introducing a new, more efficient form a permascan."
Mistakes were made. How to fix? #1. First and foremost, fix active scans (i.e. GalLogi permascan). #2. Make passive scans less bad (or) find a new job for the AM Scout. #3. Finetune Falloff mechanics (or) rework EWAR. Have you seen the cooldown times of the scanners? The guy scanning sacrifices EQ slots to keep scans up. Also, the Duvolle Focused is very very hard to use, as the scanning angle is tiny, and the duration is like 7.5 seconds with GalLogi bonus(can't remember but has like a 45 second cooldown?!?!?!). Scanners have been shat upon more then enough. Be gone with you I say. The line reads "fix GalLogi permascan". Permascan occurs at 21dB (not at 15dB). The Duvolle Focused Active Scanner is among the least problematic of the lot for precisely this reason. Even with 3-4 of them, you can't keep scans up constantly due to lengthy cooldown. By contrast, the Creodron Flux is the absolute worst as it is capable of keeping scans up constantly over vast sections of map. Another point to ponder here is teamshare vs squadshare. Back when passives were strong, we pretty much all agreed that a unit sharing long-range, always-up scans with his squad was imbalanced. What makes you think that a unit sharing long-range, always-up scans with his entire team is balanced?
At the end of the day, permascan is bad for gameplay. It always has been. Fixing GalLogi permascan is a no brainer. As it relates to Scouts ... so long as the OP Eye of Sauron is in play, there will not be for passive recon units. Active and passive scans can (and should) be balanced in such a way that there's room for both roles.
Honestly I don't see any problem with 24/7 scans, as the other team has the option of also doing this. The problem to me is scouts dampning. I'm not seeing how CCP can balance this properly without messing something else up. I remember when scouts were OP, completely unscannable. I don't want to go back to those days. I'd rather have everyone on both sides lit up like Christmas, than a few players 100% scan proof.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, 100% scan resistance is too powerful, it should not exist. If the inner ring is all we have of preventing that, then so be it.
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Medical Crash
Systematic Engineers Unlimited
411
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 05:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
To show comparison of Scanners Prenerf and Postnerf I have two gameplay videos below.
Vaccuum Cleaner Ambush Battle with Russian Squad
Notice how long the duration of the scanner is, and how fast it recharges. this is before the nerf bat beat it Bobby Brown style.
This next video is Scanners Post nerf:
Cyber Cobra Squad Ambush Battle
In this video example we now have to carry several PROTO scanners to keep scanning maintained due the incredibly severe nerfs to scanners. Look at that cooldown time, unbelievable. Please, I think scanners have been through enough.
My YouTube Channel
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Medical Crash
Systematic Engineers Unlimited
411
|
Posted - 2016.01.04 05:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Medical Crash wrote:... due the incredibly severe nerfs to scanners. What nerfs? When they fixed 360 spinscanning? Other than that -- which happened a long time ago -- the only other change to active scanners that I recall is the buff from squad-share to team-share.
I haven't checked the patch notes, but if I recall, the cooldown times of the Active Scanners prenerf were nowhere near as long as they are now.
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Medical Crash
Systematic Engineers Unlimited
413
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Posted - 2016.01.05 02:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:maybe deadcatz wrote:Lol every time I here someone go "kincats break hit detection" I know that they're really saying is "I can't keep track of a moving target because I have no gungame" first off I've killed plenty and have been killed by plenty of scouts.
And here's the thing. They don't move fast enough to break hit detection at all. My internet is good and I can easily compensate for the rare lagspikes because dust is a laggy game and sometimes hitboxes aren't aligned with the player models.
I've speedtanked before and serpentined very well and I still get hit.
Because those people had aim. I've never seen shots come at me and hit me and not have my health decrease,every time I was shot I lost health.
For the people that whine about kincats think about it.
A:you have to stop to regain stamina
B: lowslots dedicated to speed instead of armour
C:cannot attack while sprinting.
In response to some of the above people.
A:scouts in dictionary terms:someone sent ahead of the main force to gauge the enemy force.
B:the term for scout in dust means that they are meant for stealth and assassination(as described by the description)
C:scouts have weapons,and I doubt someone will let them get away if spotted,therefore a scout needs to kill just like all the other suits. Even logistics get weapons.
There already is a balance between health,speed and ewar,you can only have two of the three but ewar is broken for the amarr and min scouts and all suits vs a gal logi so people just go for HP and speed unless they run gal scout.
Problem is the creodron flux active scanner and gallente logistics destroys any stealth the scouts may have. So unless the precision on the flux active scanner is nerfed or all scouts get a bonus to scan profile then the never ending cycle will just continue. I think the Gal logi bonus to precision should be nerfed slightly from 5% per level to 3% that way it should mean that 2 damps should get all scouts under the scans or 1 damp and a proto cloak. As for the whole inner ring argument, no it shouldn't be as good as it is but it only has a 6m radius. You can literally hide anywhere outside that radius and most things will never see you, and as scouts are so fast you could get to them and kill them before you appear on their TacNet. I would suggest lowering the inner ring to maybe 4-5m or buffing the range slightly at the cost of precision. Jesus Christ people, do NONE of you remember the period of time when Gal Scouts Dampning was OP? Why do some of you want to go back to those days? The scanner is not the biggest issue it's dampnings strength. Anytime CCP messes with this it screws everything else up.
I say scanners are fine as is, leave dampners and scanning as is. It can and will get worse if altered.
You know if CCP starts messing with this again they WILL break something. I sometimes wonder if they do this intentionally.
You people want 100% scan immunity, and it's not happening, just accept it. That is too powerful, 100% scan proof fits should NOT exist. Doesn't matter if a scout has only 10 HP, scan immunity in good hands is the most dangerous thing in DUST, and you all know that.
This thread is reminding of the tank/AV threads, the debate never ends...... (Take out fuel injectors out of the game and watch tank use plummet)
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Medical Crash
Systematic Engineers Unlimited
413
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Posted - 2016.01.05 02:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:The cloak needs a minor buff. I suggest a shorter decloak delay. It's annoyingly long. I agree we need it, but not as long as we have it.
All scouts need the damp bonus, not just Gal and Cal. Without it the Am and Min scouts will always be inferior. Bonuses can be re-jigged to make this work.
Focussed scanners need a range nerf. Rattati dropped the range nerf in favour of squad only sharing. But this is no longer a drawback as the whole team is in one squad. The extra drawback should be swapped back to reduced range.
Profile dampeners maybe should be high slot modules. Scouts need speed and stealth. Having both these modules on low slots hurts balance. This is a big reason why Cal scouts aren't as useful.
These are a few small changes that would help scouts keep up with the competition and improve racial balance.
I really don't want the terror that was Scout514 to happen again. No, if CCP starts messing with scouts/dampning/scanners, we'll be going back to the dark ages.
Only thing keeping the easy mode 100% scan proof crutch suit fits from being spammed in DUST again are the scanners. Say what you guys want against Active Scanners, but the fact remain they ARE avoidable if you stack enough Dampners.
I like how it is right now, Scouts must sacrifice all else to gain near 100% scan immunity. Fitting themselves properly they can evade Galogi Proto Flux scans.
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Medical Crash
Systematic Engineers Unlimited
414
|
Posted - 2016.01.09 00:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Ankbar Latrommi wrote:I feel like my participation in thread will get me shat on, but here goes another post... Adipem Nothi wrote:Mortishai Belmont wrote:
You can either be speedy, tanky, or stealthy. You don't get to have it all.
I'll take that bait! Say I'm a MinScout who has chosen to be "stealthy". I've committed all 3 of my 3 three low slots to complex dampeners. My scan profile is 16dB. What happens when I get within knife range of an Assault or Logi who's committed 1 high slot to precision? These units have the highest module slot count in the game; is it reasonable that their single-module investment trumps my 100% investment in stealth? I've forgone speed and tank to be stealthy; why is it that my stealth is so easily trumped at so little investment? Because if it takes getting into knife range before you show up...I have been paying attention to something else--since I didn't know you were coming--and you are in no danger in the small gap of time it takes for you to knife me in the back. (not from me at least) See, I don't see a problem with the inner ring being able to pick up just about anything, cos it's literally right in front of you. By the time you've noticed you're probably gonna die anyway so it's not a real problem like the scanner. I love the scanner, it's my favourite piece of equipment but something needs to change. They are too strong on a gal logi and either the Gal Logi needs a nerf, the scanner gets nerfed or scouts get buffed. I personally don't want scouts getting buffed, we saw what happened when they didn't need to fit EWAR and it was horrid, no one wants that again. The scanner being nerfed isn't going to help either cos then scouts don't have to worry at all if the they have one damp so this is also counterproductive (unless the nerf is well thought out and not just lol nerf precision 15%). That leaves the Gal Logi. I know how good scans are on this and it's crazy. 21db scan for 200m is insane, it needs to be addressed, maybe lower precision by 10% or 2% per level.
The cooldown times of the scanners are already too much, I think they've been nerfed enough already. Just leave everything alone until DUST gets a new port.
There are better ideas out there, but I doubt tey would work with the outdated hardware we have.
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