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Norbar Recturus
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
119
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Posted - 2012.07.18 21:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Forums Veteran wrote:It works, believe me it works. And it's a lot less complicated than it sounds, you keep a repper on 1 fellow Logi, and then you handle repair calls as they come in.
Theory is busted by two AV heavies wielding Forge Guns. Instant-death to any LAV. You can not repair through this. Sure you're keeping that Sargaris alive, but at what cost? Better yet, a sniper can shoot you OUT OF YOUR COCKPIT.
SpiderTanking is legitimate in EVE because there isn't any way to circumvent the tactic outside of a large concentrated volume of fire from "far left field." There's plenty of counters to this strategy in DUST and therefore is not really a viable tactic. |
Norbar Recturus
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
119
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 04:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:
It is a viable tactic. Your forge gunner if being forced to focus fire on the Logistics LAV rather than the commander who is driving the Surya. This means that the LAVs are doing their job by simply forcing the forge gunner to fire at them instead. As long as the commander is in the field and is fitted with squad-boosting modules (which CCP will add later on), the team will have a higher likelihood of coming out as the victors.
In Eve Online, it's a same thing. Commanders from opposing fleets will always order their ships to attack the Logistics ship first in order to break down their ability to tank the damage. Same thing when dealing with e-war ships.
The same will apply to DUST.
In other words, Logistics pilots and drivers are willful cannon fodder who know that their ship/vehicle will be the first to die. It's part of their job to ensure that the commander stays alive.
In the prior build, I operated the Limbus in a skirmish battle in the Communications map while protecting a Sagaris. Guess who was the first one to die: me. The enemy was unable to destroy the tank because I was repairing it so their troops focused fire on me instead. I may have died and lost a great deal of ISK in the process, but I did my job and we won the map. The cost was worth it.
I'll go through your points one by one so that it becomes very easy to respond piece by piece.
In EVE it is not the same thing. In EVE you will always know if someone is within range of you. You will know if you're being targeted. You know who is targeting you. You can predict when and where your burst damage will take place. This is not a luxury you have on the DUST battlefield. Engagements in EVE are handled in cycles... Engagements in DUST happen in real-time. Player reaction speed determines engagement moreso here than optimal configurations and well planned strategy. I don't understand why you haven't considered this ahead of time before you presented your argument.
Squad-Leader modules, if implemented one way, will be implemented the other direction. If you have greater defensive skills from your SL, what makes you think the heavy crew won't have some kind of augmentation as well? Again, a point that you could have easily considered before you presented your argument.
The assumption that you make in your statement that logistics pilots are willful cannon fodder assumes that the amount of time they buy the offensive units they are supporting can be used to actually do something effective or kill the unit / ship which is ripping your team apart. We're about to see why this is not the case.
The charge time on a Forge Gun fired by an AV heavy is 2.1 seconds. If you have 5 Logistics LAVs and one Tank then you're looking at about half a minute of mobile infantry picking off your support with relative ease, probably from cover and no-sight, with virtually no risk. The cost of this infantryman's fit is roughly 23,000 ISK. After about 30 seconds of shooting out the LAVs, this two man team will have inflicted approximately 150-250K damages on you and will then proceed to destroy your 100-150K fit Sargaris in about 20 seconds.
To recap: Two soldiers (46,000 ISK) + Decent Tactics + 1 minute = 250-400K ISK damage and taking the position you thought you had well defended. Not worth it. At best you were a nuisance to the Forge Guns. At worst you killed one and he waited for his ally to respawn from the Drop Uplink.
Finally: You were playing Skirmish on Communications? How. The only gametype available on Comms was Ambush. Either you're full of **** or you're mis-remembering. In Ambush games (which it is very likely you were playing) you're less likely to run into anti-vehicular strategy because the emphasis is on "killing clones," and the most common train of thought to do this is with anti-infantry weaponry. In addition, most people who play the Ambush gametype are Lone Wolves. The fact that you beat that instinct to team-up is what gave you the advantage... not the fact that you had a solid strategy.
Any player worth his salt has Amarr Heavy Dropsuit to 1 and Forge Gun Opperations to 3 specifically to combat tanks in the current build. As the Skill Point multiplier is removed, you'll see less of this... but you'll see fewer vehicles as well. Compensation will take place in both directions.
Please understand that I'm not disagreeing with you on a personal level, just on the facts that have been presented. If I have attacked your delivery (which I have) it's only to try and receive a more thoroughly reasoned response.
I eagerly await your reply. This discussion will help solidify or bust Spider Tanking. |
Norbar Recturus
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
119
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 13:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Norbar Recturus wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:
In the prior build, I operated the Limbus...
Oops.
RE: No Lock-on notification in DUST and Invisible Attackers I still see cycles with the modules the same way I see with Eve. You are right about the distance though. It gets more complicated if I'm targeting more than one.The point I was trying to get across is that unlike EVE where Modules activate, cycle, and then activate again if automatic, DUST has (from the infantry perspective) continuous activation and/or burst activation with reloading being the "cycle time." You can't accurately predict damage spikes, and this is what I was trying to get across.RE: Squad-Leader modules... If you're talking about the forge gunner or swarm launcher guys, I see what you mean. But they still have to get rid of the logistics LAVs before they focus on the main target. Again, Logis would still do their job by sacrificing themselves for their leader.Okay, we're on the same page here. Moving on.The assumption that you make in your statement that logistics pilots are willful cannon fodder assumes that the amount of time they buy the offensive units they are supporting can be used to actually do something effective or kill the unit / ship which is ripping your team apart. We're about to see why this is not the case. Assuming CCP doesn't change any of the targeting mechanics for the remote repair modules, then your point would be valid. With the current mechanics, the best logi setup is two logis repping a third logi that is repping a tank that holds the leader. The chain is simple but will be weak.Here's where we seem to have a misunderstanding or disagreement (I'm not sure which yet). I'm not talking about the mechanics of the RR being called in question, I'm looking specifically at the ideology behind the concept that spider-tank logis are willfully going to die for a good cause. Which is why I'm so thorough in picking apart the ISK cost/lost in the next section along with a time-table for the elimination of your "fleet.">>>Stuff was here about fitting prices and how long it takes to kill things<<< Valid point. But one can fit more than one remote repair and stagger the activation of the modules to mitigate the wait time between cool downs. The logis will still be destroyed regardless, but the time might increase just enough for the leader to get to safety or perhaps see back up arrive. Every little bit helps.No. A LAV, even a well fit LAV under repair conditions (circa current build), has no way of increasing its TTL against two Forge blasts. The damage is simply too high and too fast to be accounted for through any strategy available (again, circa current build). Staying mobile is your best bet but that opens you up to other problems, namely keeping the tank in question in range of all the little LAVs while they stay in range of each other. Impossible as of current build.To recap: Two soldiers (46,000 ISK) + Decent Tactics + 1 minute = 250-400K ISK damage and taking the position you thought you had well defended. Not worth it. At best you were a nuisance to the Forge Guns. At worst you killed one and he waited for his ally to respawn from the Drop Uplink. So? If being a nuisance bought time for my leader, what do I care?[i]You should care. There's a concept in warfare called operational efficacy. It's a statistic that armies track for a reason: it's important to know how often a stated objective can be completed under given conditions. If you routinely "buy" your "leader" (read: tank) 30 seconds of time to [b]run away[b] then you're throwing away money and clones. From a defensive standpoint, you just gave your defensive strong-point away because two forge guns came trolling around. From an offensive standpoint this is marginally better because heavies are slow and you can definitely go to a different objective where they can not follow. All-in-all the point is less for the logistics driver, and more for the "leader" himself to decide whether or not this tactic should be picked to begin with.
Maken Tosch wrote:
I like to also mention that we are assuming that the tank and LAVs will be in motion. No self-respecting fleet commander would sit still while his enemies attack him. Also, once corporations form later on, we can expect to see backup arrive to deal with the AV heavies or replace the Logistics vehicles that were lost.
Then we can also assume that you're going to break your lock and die a horrible death because you're now out in the open, away from cover. You need a LOT of space to work the strategy you're discussing and I don't think you quite understand exactly how much that is.
True: no self respecting FC sits still... but EVE is 3D space, not linear. Most instances where Spider-Tanking is required are for sieges (which you have very limited maneuverability) or for defending against them (where you have NO maneuverability). So this is mostly a bogus argument.
If you want to continue reinforcing your spidertank thing, you have to wait for the vehicle call to be executed, and then the travel time, and then there's the counter-argument where more AV troops show up and start killing 2 LAVs per two second cycle. Not very workable now. Your best counter is a Sniper... not more obtuse chunks of metal.
Maken Tosch wrote:I doubt the commander would want to stand still for a whole minute waiting for his doom. People will take cover or ask for backup if they are in danger. I'm saying this under condition of a corp-vs-corp battle, not a random-vs.-random battle like we have now.
Still does not hold much water because vehicular cover is sparse and disrupts a locking chain for logistics operation. Ran out of space... this is the end my friend! Lol. |
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