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True Adamance
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2015.12.20 19:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
Transferred = BPO/SKIN, Faction Standing, SP (SP is considered a conditional transfer)
Not Transferred = ISK, AUR, Assets, District Credits, Loyalty Points
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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True Adamance
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2015.12.20 19:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Luther Mandrix wrote:ANON Cerberus wrote:I think it would possibly be bad for the game to transfer ISK + SP and the like as much as I would like them to.
That being said we need something substantial that represents our time here in DUST. Ranks, loyalty ranks anything else that we can think of that wont directly interfere with the NPE but at the same time satisfies us as PS3 DUST players on the (presumed) next gen DUST.
It also depends a lot on what a possible next Gen DUST 514 actually has. If it had some sort of rankings and commander mode like in Battlefield games then I would like our SP levels or something to give us a rank boost in the next game. But its all so hypothetical its hard to think of what these things might actually be. CCP wants a EVE Like sandbox so isk MUST TRANSFER its a big universe that can be divided up to high sec low sec and nulsec so new players can be protected in high sec from the better assets of the isk rich players
ISK cannot transfer in its current state. As Dusters were have an over inflated sense of our worth.
E.G-
My fully kitted HAV costs 1.143M ISK to deploy. Most standard Destroyer Hulls cost between 1.1 and 1.7M ISK (if off to the top of my head I'm right). A 10m to 12m long HAV should not cost and should not cost anywhere near as much as a 50m+ platform of mass destructed capable of interstellar travel.
Nor should a single Dust 514 dropsuit cost most than a Small Turret.
If Legion does see a transfer I'd also like to see ISK values in the game scaled down so each individual ISK is worth more to us. There seems to be no intent to ever link the economies so it shouldn't matter if the pay outs and costs of assets are scales down.
If they ever did I could image Dusters would get much more in the way of work/contracts charging 100,000 ISK per merc per conflict than they would trying to charge EVE players 10,000,000 ISK per merc per conflict.
I mean how many people who play this game actually know that 1ISK will buy food of a standard New Eden Family for one month..... and we're trying to tell people out drop-suits cost more than naval guns with a power to decimate smalls towns with individual shots when the size, materials, etc of this weapon exceed that of the suit in question.....
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
21
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Posted - 2015.12.20 20:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:True Adamance wrote:Luther Mandrix wrote:ANON Cerberus wrote:I think it would possibly be bad for the game to transfer ISK + SP and the like as much as I would like them to.
That being said we need something substantial that represents our time here in DUST. Ranks, loyalty ranks anything else that we can think of that wont directly interfere with the NPE but at the same time satisfies us as PS3 DUST players on the (presumed) next gen DUST.
It also depends a lot on what a possible next Gen DUST 514 actually has. If it had some sort of rankings and commander mode like in Battlefield games then I would like our SP levels or something to give us a rank boost in the next game. But its all so hypothetical its hard to think of what these things might actually be. CCP wants a EVE Like sandbox so isk MUST TRANSFER its a big universe that can be divided up to high sec low sec and nulsec so new players can be protected in high sec from the better assets of the isk rich players ISK cannot transfer in its current state. As Dusters were have an over inflated sense of our worth. E.G- My fully kitted HAV costs 1.143M ISK to deploy. Most standard Destroyer Hulls cost between 1.1 and 1.7M ISK (if off to the top of my head I'm right). A 10m to 12m long HAV should not cost and should not cost anywhere near as much as a 50m+ platform of mass destructed capable of interstellar travel. Nor should a single Dust 514 dropsuit cost most than a Small Turret. If Legion does see a transfer I'd also like to see ISK values in the game scaled down so each individual ISK is worth more to us. There seems to be no intent to ever link the economies so it shouldn't matter if the pay outs and costs of assets are scales down. If they ever did I could image Dusters would get much more in the way of work/contracts charging 100,000 ISK per merc per conflict than they would trying to charge EVE players 10,000,000 ISK per merc per conflict. I mean how many people who play this game actually know that 1ISK will buy food of a standard New Eden Family for one month..... and we're trying to tell people out drop-suits cost more than naval guns with a power to decimate smalls towns with individual shots when the size, materials, etc of this weapon exceed that of the suit in question..... It is simple. People have spent real money on ISK so if any asset transfers then ISK must also transfer. When it comes to transfers the simple fact is we were never delivered a full product so if we are asked to start all over and have none of our past spending count just because CCP could not get it right on the PS3 then who is to say the same thing will not happen all over again. If no assets transfer I will happily play the new version but I can guarantee not a single dime will be spent. I do not see why people are so against asset transfers in the first place. If they can not even get matchmaking right in the new version and are still having to cram old and new players together in matches then what good is a new version? We may as well just do a full reset on every patch to make sure we keep everyone on equal footing no matter what they do. Hell while we are at it why not make it so that every person gets paid the same thing in every match. Why should effort count for anything? #NewEdenSocialism
I have two real issues with that. One is that Dust was subject to a period of ISK exploitation from the passive ISK fonts of Molden Heath... a poor mechanics that essentially spared the exploiting corporations fear of a core aspect of this game.... and also that it would continue to perpetuate this idea that what we are paid out for matches and PC is an acceptable benchmark.
It's simply not. I'm quite of the opinion the costs of our modules and pay outs we receive should be reduced ten fold or even one hundred fold.
E.G- If a suit now costs 30,000 ISK to field it instead costs 3000 ISK to field. To put that weapon platforms cost into perspective.... thats 250 years worth of food for the average human family in New Eden
If a tank cost 1,000,000 ISK it now costs 100,000 to field. That's 8333 years of food for a new Eden family.......
To be honest I'd love to strike one more zero off of those calculations but..... if I did that the people might begin to think their mercenaries are worth too little.
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2015.12.20 20:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:Honestly? Nothing. If Dust ports, it simply HAS to be a new game, a direct sequel I suppose, where the lore, ethos and general concepts of Dust have been faithfully kept (but with heavy tweaking; so many mistakes were made during the initial designing of this game), but essentially everyone starts off as equals. At the most, I'd want my name and my corp badge, for old times' sake. Oh, and AUR too, but that's a no brainer. Fundementally though, if we let this community slide all of its assets, ISK and, most crucually, XP across in any form at all then we're killing the port off at birth. We are a community of careless, cynical arseholes and we *will* protostomp all-comers from day one if given the opportunity to, and be damned the NPE. I know it's a lot to ask, but if we want the port to thrive it can't have at its core a ready-made unassailable elite of veterans who have all the money, all the experience and all the game know-how at their disposable from launch day. We've got to learn from our mistakes and give everyone an equal chance to survive and thrive.
Lore could stay the same but I see that as CCP shooting themselves in the foot. At present the lore establishes Dusters as nothing more than a general kind of super soldier.
We're.....
- about eight feet tall in combat clones with depending on your dropsuit up to 25mm of armour plating
- have reduced pain senses to allow us to take significant damage and keep fuctioning
- given featureless bodies and faces to cut down on clone costs
- equipped with weapons so powerful that firing them without a dropsuit would break a baseliners arm or set them ablaze
And yet for all those merits those incredible aspects we're still.....
- so under CONCORD's thumb that we're functionally no more capable and vastly more expensive than a baseliner mercenary company.
If CCP does establish Legion as its own game I'd love to see them iterate upon the lore of the cloned soldiers to see us get outside CONCORDs authority, operating freely throughout the cluster in conflicts whose war prices are either so high operating with baseliners is no longer possible.
Soldiers who need to operate in environments so hostile that our ability to mitigate the loss of experience upon death is worth spending fortunes upon, in localities so difficult to conventionally deploy to that high speed orbital drops or short range teleportation/displacement technology is required, or in places that require the attention of mercenaries part conventional soldier and part astronaut.
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2015.12.21 21:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
DJINN Heartreaper wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:It would be hilarious if they allowed people to keep their ISK but then allowed ISK transfers from EVE. Would basically make whatever amount saved up in DUST completely inconsequential. Everything would be really expensive for non EvE players lmao
This simply cannot be allowed to happen. EVER!
Dust must never have a linked economy with EVE online. EVE players like myself could literally inundate entire corporations and alliances with enough ISK to sustain themselves for ever functionally killing the aspect of assets actually mattering.
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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True Adamance
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2015.12.21 21:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:DJINN Heartreaper wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:It would be hilarious if they allowed people to keep their ISK but then allowed ISK transfers from EVE. Would basically make whatever amount saved up in DUST completely inconsequential. Everything would be really expensive for non EvE players lmao This simply cannot be allowed to happen. EVER! Dust must never have a linked economy with EVE online. EVE players like myself could literally inundate entire corporations and alliances with enough ISK to sustain themselves for ever functionally killing the aspect of assets actually mattering. Sounds a bit similar to the issues we have with how ISK is distributed in DUST now. Many are so obscenely rich that cost is non issue.
Not to mention we're being paid out far too much per battle and that there is no way our dropsuits, tanks, equipment, etc cost as much as they do.
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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True Adamance
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2015.12.22 00:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:True Adamance wrote:DJINN Heartreaper wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:It would be hilarious if they allowed people to keep their ISK but then allowed ISK transfers from EVE. Would basically make whatever amount saved up in DUST completely inconsequential. Everything would be really expensive for non EvE players lmao This simply cannot be allowed to happen. EVER! Dust must never have a linked economy with EVE online. EVE players like myself could literally inundate entire corporations and alliances with enough ISK to sustain themselves for ever functionally killing the aspect of assets actually mattering. People have to stop thinking this. Injecting tons of ISK into a Corporation is no guarantee it's members are any good. This isn't like EVE where you just point and click. If you have an unlimited bank account but no skill, you'll just be able to sustain losing constantly.
It's not about good it's about being able to acquire so much Dust ISK that I couldn't spend it all in a decade if I tried.
As of right now if ISK trading was opened up I could inject roundly 2.3 Billion ISK immediately into my Dust players account, spend hundreds of millions of ISK on half a dozen prototype suit and tank fittings and literally never run through them all.
((Hell I could bank roll the ten or twelve former PCLAS members for a few years with 0 in game effort))
Firstly where is the fun in that and secondly how the **** do you justify a bankrolling of that kind in a gritty economic setting.
I mean **** it at that point I might as well just retire and never both playing because the goal of economic gain is gone.
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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True Adamance
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Posted - 2015.12.22 02:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
benandjerrys wrote:True Adamance wrote:DJINN Heartreaper wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:It would be hilarious if they allowed people to keep their ISK but then allowed ISK transfers from EVE. Would basically make whatever amount saved up in DUST completely inconsequential. Everything would be really expensive for non EvE players lmao This simply cannot be allowed to happen. EVER! Dust must never have a linked economy with EVE online. EVE players like myself could literally inundate entire corporations and alliances with enough ISK to sustain themselves for ever functionally killing the aspect of assets actually mattering. Wasn't that the original point?
Then what is the value of playing a game that revolves around conceptual back bone of an economy driven war?
- You never run out of nor ever run low on ISK
- Since the above is true you never run out of equipment
- Since the above is true your equipment a weapons might as well not even be finite
- Since the above is true what is the value of the tiered system of modules, dropsuits, and equipment if everyone can afford them?
- Since the above is true what is the core incentive to play this generic shooter with no sense of economy over one produced by a company that can craft more developed shooter mechanics?
As I keep pointing out the economic model of Dust 514 makes almost no sense.
A fully equipped battle tank barely 10m long costs the same amount as the hull of a 50m long intergalartic weapons platform of mass destruction the component parts of which could likely build 2 or 3 other such tanks.....
That doesn't even account for turrets, modules, and the like.
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
21
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Posted - 2015.12.22 02:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:benandjerrys wrote:True Adamance wrote:DJINN Heartreaper wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:It would be hilarious if they allowed people to keep their ISK but then allowed ISK transfers from EVE. Would basically make whatever amount saved up in DUST completely inconsequential. Everything would be really expensive for non EvE players lmao This simply cannot be allowed to happen. EVER! Dust must never have a linked economy with EVE online. EVE players like myself could literally inundate entire corporations and alliances with enough ISK to sustain themselves for ever functionally killing the aspect of assets actually mattering. Wasn't that the original point? To be fair there could be a system where EVE players could reward DUST players in a way not tied to ISK. The point was to have a mutual relationship between the two games, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be through the transfer of ISK.
Agreed. A system that allows the supply or rewards for actions undertaken would suffice.
However a system where an alliance could reward billions of ISK for single PvE or PvP match...... would quite literally ruin the game.
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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