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Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
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Posted - 2015.12.11 20:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
That issue is Hacking.
Now I'm not trying to start a debate over platform. I'm going to invoke #portDust514 in the hopes that we maintain civility and discuss the issue objectively.
What I want is to hear your ideas for countering the Hacking issue that remains in many PC games, and possibly even your personal experiences with it.
I wanted to make a thread about this because of a lengthy discussion I had with Cat Merc on how Valve-Anti-Cheat and the Overwatch system work on Counter Strike: Global Offensive. He informed me that despite the lengths they've gone to, it has only reduced the population of hackers, and that they are still a reality of playing the game.
So what are your thoughts on this or potential solutions? If the game released on PC or on both platforms, how would you attempt to combat this issue?
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 21:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:Can't remember the game, but one has a system were players community decide over bans for hackers, data showed that cheater number greatly lowered.
I believe that would be the Overwatch system in CS:GO that I mentioned. Community members can review footage from the perspective of the cheater in order to determine guilt.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 21:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
The issue concerns me most in areas where we most influence EVE Online.
I've actually seen EVE players admit that at least on consoles they don't have to worry about losing systems to cheaters winning battles to flip planets in that system.
Imagine how they would react if their hard work in space can be undone by some assholes with cheat software? And especially the fact that banning said assholes won't even deter them because they can just make a new account and hop right back in?
I don't want to create a divide between the two games or do anything more to fuel the Console vs PC bullshit.
However, I also don't want to arbitrarily exclude a large population of gamers from being able to play the game for that reason alone.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 21:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:I like the systems that do things like making ammo and damage next to nothing, so you see people not realizing and hoping online to complain about it. Its hilarious to see the cheaters out themselves.
That's actually fairly clever.
I liked one story I read about cheaters in EVE using a bug in manufacturing to instantly complete jobs that allowed them to make a ton of ISK.
CCP logged in on their Dev characters and blew up all their assets manually, then banned them afterward.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.11 23:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Devadander wrote:[Lots of quotes]
This is the kind of honest reality I was hoping to see in this thread.
By all means, make it pc/ps4. Just don't put us in the same battles..
That would completely ruin the game though.
One Universe. One War.
That's the foundation this game is built on, and is essential to it being part of New Eden.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 00:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Devadander wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Devadander wrote:[Lots of quotes]
This is the kind of honest reality I was hoping to see in this thread.
By all means, make it pc/ps4. Just don't put us in the same battles..
That would completely ruin the game though. One Universe. One War. That's the foundation this game is built on, and is essential to it being part of New Eden. I don't see it. If pc/ps4 were allowed in same chat channels, it would be as one universe as we are now...
You've seen my example of territorial conflict right?
If not, imagine being unable to take a planet because the people on it are on another platform.
The game needs to either be fully cross-play or not at all.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 00:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Devadander wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Devadander wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Devadander wrote:[Lots of quotes]
This is the kind of honest reality I was hoping to see in this thread.
By all means, make it pc/ps4. Just don't put us in the same battles..
That would completely ruin the game though. One Universe. One War. That's the foundation this game is built on, and is essential to it being part of New Eden. I don't see it. If pc/ps4 were allowed in same chat channels, it would be as one universe as we are now... You've seen my example of territorial conflict right? If not, imagine being unable to take a planet because the people on it are on another platform. The game needs to either be fully cross-play or not at all. You have lost me... All I can gather from this tree is that it HAS to be ps4 only. If you are talking about eve taking planets, and dust affecting that, it already happens to a minor degree. And we are on another platform. If you mean, we get it on pc/ps4 together, and the pc players CHEAT a system into being untakable. I believe that's what this whole thread is about... The dangers of a pc dust vs a ps4. So ... Huh?
I'm talking about if you separate the communities.
Say if in Planetary Conquest you want to take a planet, but since you're on PS4 and the owners are on PC, you can't fight them at all and have to go elsewhere.
As another example imagine that you have a team of PC players who want to defend a Caldari system from Gallente players, but all the Gallente players are on PS4s. You'd have to just watch helplessly as they take it, or try and get a PS4 team together to fight them, in which case you have to miss out on the fight while other players do it for you.
Whichever platform had more users in Dust would gradually make playing on the minority platform frustrating and maybe even impossible.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 01:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Devadander wrote:I getcha there. That makes sense. But when you said it needs to be fully cross play or not at all.. You mean a mixed pool?
Yes. The ability to fight anyone regardless of location on the planet is the most central feature of EVE Online.
The same must be true of Dust and platform played on.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 02:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bri Bub wrote:There is a lot of good input in this thread and I don't disagree with Mobius but... We have a similar issue with PC timers mows where folks on the other side of the world are nearly untouchable unless you upset your RL schedule to try to unseat them... One way to address that is to try to make your Corp as international as possible with members from all time zones... Stands to reason that you would want your Corp to includes PS4 users and PC users so that you cannot be shut out of any districts...
But btw, I want the next platform to be PS4... Good topic though, good read... o7
This is actually part of what CCP sought to address in EVE via the new structures coming out next year. They have weekly vulnerability times that can be allocated as the owner wishes, but larger structures with larger influence have more time.
The XL Citadels structures have a mandatory 21 hours of time per week, so 3 hours per day, or you can allocate them in longer periods to generate rights and thus content for your members.
A similar system might work for Dust. Provide more incentive to set longer windows on days when you have more people online, like the weekends.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 04:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Devadander wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Devadander wrote:I getcha there. That makes sense. But when you said it needs to be fully cross play or not at all.. You mean a mixed pool? Yes. The ability to fight anyone regardless of location on the planet is the most central feature of EVE Online. The same must be true of Dust and platform played on. Ah, then I must be strictly ps4 from now on.
Well the idea is to brainstorm a way to solve the cheating issue so both groups can play together.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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|
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Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 13:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:I think its a little sad that the only value we seem to place on the integrity of Dust is its potential connection to EVE.
Granted, the current game sucks, but if we're talking about a theoretical version one might at least attempt to give it the benefit of the doubt as to being good enough you might not want it ruined by hackers lol.
I can tell you, connection to EVE or not, I certainly wouldn't want people cheating against me in PC or anywhere else. If I lost a district to a hacker, I'd be pissed. If CCP wouldn't rule against him, I'd probably peace out and take as many people with me as I could. That kind of thing is toxic. I don't think anyone is placing the value of Dust solely on an Eve connection but instead hoping to realize the vision which was promised years ago
Part of that vision is "One Universe. One War".
If this game doesn't follow the same single-shard (everyone on one server and everyone can interact with everyone else) philosophy that EVE Online does, how does it deserve to be associated at all?
Hell, what's even the point of playing it? This game wasn't designed as a standalone like EVE: Valkyrie, and CCP Guard even responded to a thread on the EVE Forums saying that Valkyrie integration into EVE Online "isn't off the table" but that they aren't pursuing it at all right now because they just want to make a cool game.
EVE Valkyrie was built from the start to be a standalone with no influence on the EVE universe.
Dust 514, however, was built from the start to be a part of New Eden and have an effect on EVE Online through many means. If you take that away what's left of the original vision?
I realize quoting like this makes it seem like I'm arguing with the last person who posted, but I just wanted to lay out part of why we keep discussing the EVE link as far as the future of this game.
I mean, let's be real here: if this was just some random free-to-play game made by a new company none of us had ever heard of and had no link at all to New Eden, most of us would have played one match and then uninstalled it.
We're here because of the universe this game allows us to be part of to a limited extent, and those of us that remain are here because we still hope to see the full vision from back in 2009 realized.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.12 23:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Mortishai Belmont wrote:First off a "#" does nothing on here Untrue Search crawlers will pull up that exact phrase so it's more likely the thread will pop up in a search engine if anyone decides to search said hashtag.
Yeah, that's why I've been putting the pound sign on the front whenever I talk about it.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.13 14:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:I don't see how the original vision is pertinent to whether or not Dust should be on PC.
If hacking is an issue its an issue regardless of its original vision.
And you would play the game because it should, theoretically, be a good game. If it isn't, then that's the reason not to play it. But a game being good or not doesn't hinge on whether or not its fully connected to another game. That just makes it better. It's never been the heart of this game, it's always been a gimmick.
But this is all rather moot because at the very minimum, the link exists. It works and so long as Dust isn't killed off it isn't going anywhere.
The link is what attracted most of the early players to this game, is what I'm saying.
You remember how hyped people got about playing when they showed that live orbital strike back in 2012? The first time CCP actually showed one on the EVE test server there were hundreds of us all gathered over that District just to watch the strike.
Hell, I even got a video of it.
That and the promise of steadily increasing player counts brought a lot of us. Hell, most of the MAG community came over because they were hoping they'd one day get the 256 player battles they missed from their old game back again.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 12:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Devadander wrote:
If you are talking about eve taking planets, and dust affecting that, it already happens to a minor degree. And we are on another platform.
First of all no it doesn't and secondly you have no idea how much of a nuisance we are to EVE players.... its's not even funny sometimes. Without getting too much into the benefits of either console or PC..... can Dust ever really go anywhere or be a part of the same universe on a console? .... I struggle to believe it can unless there is a really strong attempt by CCP to bring us to terms with EVE pilots.
Actually we who play Dust aren't as much of a nuisance as you might think.
The only real way that Dust 514 has any impact on EVE Online is via Faction Warfare. With Dust players fighting in FW, you can possibly take a system with far more ease than you could otherwise, which is commented on by the FW players I've flown with and actually appreciated.
HOWEVER, the issue is that that contribution can only be partly influenced from EVE, and is a lot of times entirely random. As one of our community members uploaded a video of, on some occasions you can have worked to try and flip a system for hours and then suddenly have it become locked again thanks to a few bad teams fighting for your side flipping the Planetary bonus back to your enemy. THAT is what is found to be frustrating by EVE players.
Losing a fight to a force you have no control over and can do nothing to defend yourself against sucks. That's part of why I and others have long been pushing for a means to pledge loyalty to factions in exchange for being able to choose deployment locations. That way we can better coordinate our influence in EVE and be more useful than we are a nuisance.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 16:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Meee One wrote:I like how everyone is using nonpersistent games for example.
"Well in BF..."
"In CS it's like this..."
Those games effectively change nothing in the long run.
Ffs,their progress resets when a newer version is released.
However in Dust (as invisioned) those same said actions (hackers) would have dramatic changes,possibly even permanent ones.
And idiotic people are like "but it should still come to PC".
It makes me picture them as an old pervert trying to lure the immature Dust into their van for "candy".
The long-term damage is far too great to risk on an imaginary sense that "i own a PC therefore it should be on PC".
Taking all factors into consideration it should go to PS4.
Reasons:
-less long-term damage
-it was supposed to be a bridge between the platforms (but EVE players are so spoiled they want to recall it exclusively for themselves)
-streamlined updates by sony
-uniform programming can be used
-will bring in more EVE players from a fresh untapped market
That last reason is very important,re-read it.
I happen to agree with you, but I wanted to see what ideas people had for combatting that problem so we could focus on issues like control discrepancies in the case of cross-play.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.14 17:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Devadander wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Meee One wrote:I like how everyone is using nonpersistent games for example.
"Well in BF..."
"In CS it's like this..."
Those games effectively change nothing in the long run.
Ffs,their progress resets when a newer version is released.
However in Dust (as invisioned) those same said actions (hackers) would have dramatic changes,possibly even permanent ones.
And idiotic people are like "but it should still come to PC".
It makes me picture them as an old pervert trying to lure the immature Dust into their van for "candy".
The long-term damage is far too great to risk on an imaginary sense that "i own a PC therefore it should be on PC".
Taking all factors into consideration it should go to PS4.
Reasons:
-less long-term damage
-it was supposed to be a bridge between the platforms (but EVE players are so spoiled they want to recall it exclusively for themselves)
-streamlined updates by sony
-uniform programming can be used
-will bring in more EVE players from a fresh untapped market
That last reason is very important,re-read it. I happen to agree with you, but I wanted to see what ideas people had for combatting that problem so we could focus on issues like control discrepancies in the case of cross-play. In all this time, I've recruited people from everywhere but eve. O.o total mindwarp. Back on topic. My concerns about pc have always been strong. This thread and its many posters has solidified that concern. I cannot support dust on pc. There have been some bugs, we kept playing. There has been some lag, we kept playing. Imagine spawning in at ground, and being headshotted by a bolt pistol from 2000+ meters. Even better... Imagine if you will, a world where blaster madrugars have aimbot.... *drops mic*
What I'm pretty sure he meant was bringing players to EVE by exposing them to Dust.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 20:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Meee One wrote:I like how everyone is using nonpersistent games for example.
"Well in BF..."
"In CS it's like this..."
Those games effectively change nothing in the long run.
Ffs,their progress resets when a newer version is released.
However in Dust (as invisioned) those same said actions (hackers) would have dramatic changes,possibly even permanent ones.
And idiotic people are like "but it should still come to PC".
It makes me picture them as an old pervert trying to lure the immature Dust into their van for "candy".
The long-term damage is far too great to risk on an imaginary sense that "i own a PC therefore it should be on PC".
Taking all factors into consideration it should go to PS4.
Reasons:
-less long-term damage
-it was supposed to be a bridge between the platforms (but EVE players are so spoiled they want to recall it exclusively for themselves)
-streamlined updates by sony
-uniform programming can be used
-will bring in more EVE players from a fresh untapped market
That last reason is very important,re-read it. I happen to agree with you, but I wanted to see what ideas people had for combatting that problem so we could focus on issues like control discrepancies in the case of cross-play. The only solution(s) i have are: -only ps4 -platform lock,so ps4 and PCs can't fight eachother. Halve some of EVE space for PC and the other half for Ps4.(For planetary conquest,but leave the market inter-connected) -device lock A.K.A. no KB/M M/kb have an overwhelming advantage in terms of accuracy and reaction speed. Unless you buff controllers till they are OP,or nerf KB/M until it's worthless it'll never be balanced. But as to combating hackers...I have several options. 1.Have them do negative damage,so they heal their target. 2.Have the damage they do reflect back on themselves. 3.Have them marked as an enemy to all entities/players while having everyone else marked as an ally to the hacker,and disable their hacking ability. (In a gamemode like Dom,both teams could kill them.) 2+3 together would be my ideal solution. 2 for FW specifically.
That's actually a pretty devious solution. I like it!
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 21:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Regarding complaints of hackers impacting a persistent universe and fundamentally altering it could that not be solved by constructing significantly more robust models and reflectors for control and sovereignty on DUST/Legion's end so that shifts in power do not resolve after individual battles and require a more concerted effort to achieve.
As for splitting New Eden in two.... I find the idea quite unacceptable as groups on a specific platform might find themselves alienated from and unable to engage with their EVE side alliances due to an arbitrary decision that functionally locks them out of the content they want.
Saying they need to find another alliance within the regions they are allowed to fight in is not a good enough solution to that issue.
If I recall correctly wasn't CCP considering a product called EVE Universe that combined Valkyrie, Legion, and EVE profiles into a single application that would allow pilots to fight over space, step down onto the battlefields, and also dog fight above them pretty much at will?
I find it unlikely that concept has survived given that after FF2014 they have been quite steadfast in stating that EVE Valkyrie was made as a standalone and will remain a standalone for the foreseeable future. They have repeatedly said that they have no plans for any form of integration.
CCP Guard said they want to take a look at that at some undefined point in the future, but I would expect that it will be many years before the company starts thinking about that again.
I absolutely agree on the standpoint of making territorial conflict have a progression rather than relying on a single match, as well as with the idea of splitting New Eden by platform being absolutely unacceptable. In that case Console players would be immediately shut out and we'd soon see calls to remove them entirely so as to allow the PC players full control.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 21:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Freshbrood Clan Strife wrote:Just make Dust stand alone. It's a stupid gimmick to tie it into Eve anyway. No one really cares.
Or, one solution also- just sync weekly, instead of in real time. That way it gives devs/admins some time to review hacker complaints, review battles, and help to reduce hacking by invalidating stats that they've deemed to be shady.
I wouldn't consider that acceptable either. Part of what brought people to the game in the first place was having an influence in New Eden.
You may be content with Public Contracts, but removing the EVE link or giving it a weekly update frequency would have a major negative impact on the game for those of us that enjoy Faction Warfare, just as one example.
The game should develop more of a connection to EVE after migrating to a new platform, not have the connection removed before we can even see where it might go.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.15 23:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:benandjerrys wrote:True Adamance wrote:Devadander wrote:
If you are talking about eve taking planets, and dust affecting that, it already happens to a minor degree. And we are on another platform.
First of all no it doesn't and secondly you have no idea how much of a nuisance we are to EVE players.... its's not even funny sometimes. Without getting too much into the benefits of either console or PC..... can Dust ever really go anywhere or be a part of the same universe on a console? .... I struggle to believe it can unless there is a really strong attempt by CCP to bring us to terms with EVE pilots. First off there was no concrete attempt to do so and the ignorance regarding Dust players pursuing cross content going thru the proper channels is absolutely disgusting. There are a handful of players that even know how to and even less that care to attempt. The risk vs isk gain was always tipped to be almost a non profit organization for EvE characters to even care. Nobody in this community knows how to properly rub elbows with the eggos. That and we are absolute lords of excrement and mostly in the effect to entertain ourselves. Tl;Dr we suck, they suck, all of us suck. EVE pilots really aren't all that hard to get in touch with or talk to.... however as you said Dust has never meant enough for them to care and most can simply go about their normal business without ever interacting with a Dust player saving of course those sparse local systems which we are allocated. Fortunately I'm attached to an active EVE side alliance so meeting capsuleers hasn't been hard (admittedly they're only low sec FW focused) and also the RP community who are happy to engage with you providing you show as much an interesting in their content as yours and you understand where you fit into the lore.
Advantage of being an Amarr RPer I guess.
It's harder for the rest of us to easily find such a connection.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
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Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 00:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Yes.
So far we've had suggestions of how to penalize hackers when they've been found, but finding them out is still somewhat difficult.
As an example, while connection spoofing is easy to detect, a cheat like an aimbot simply looks for shapes on your screen and moves your cursor to center on them. That can be far harder to combat because unless you spectate the person directly it can be hard to tell that they're doing it. Also, someone who knows what they're doing can use it in such a way that they don't exhibit the usual calling card of "snapping" as the aimbot forces their character to instantly face the target.
Anyone have any ideas on how to better detect that?
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Mobius Wyvern
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.16 01:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Yes.
So far we've had suggestions of how to penalize hackers when they've been found, but finding them out is still somewhat difficult.
As an example, while connection spoofing is easy to detect, a cheat like an aimbot simply looks for shapes on your screen and moves your cursor to center on them. That can be far harder to combat because unless you spectate the person directly it can be hard to tell that they're doing it. Also, someone who knows what they're doing can use it in such a way that they don't exhibit the usual calling card of "snapping" as the aimbot forces their character to instantly face the target.
Anyone have any ideas on how to better detect that? Pardon my ignorance but are there many aimbots that specifically target the centre of mass so as not to appear as the more obnoxious 'head shot aim-bots' you occasionally get to rate in CS:GO?
Well I meant centering on the object of choice, not necessarily the body. I should have been more specific.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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