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General Mosquito
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
418
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Posted - 2015.12.07 01:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Mortishai Belmont wrote:This is why I carry a small pistol on me now wherever I go, with everyone going crazy in America, I'd like to be able to shoot back once someone starts and perhaps save lives.
Yeah because the one time in 137 active shooterincidents is totally worth the cost that open or concealed carry causes.
Your fear of a statistically unlikely event leads you to accept far more frequent innocent deaths as a consequence and it is baffling.
The Attorney General - Mr. Hybrid Vayu
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General Mosquito
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
418
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 02:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mortishai Belmont wrote:General Mosquito wrote:Mortishai Belmont wrote:This is why I carry a small pistol on me now wherever I go, with everyone going crazy in America, I'd like to be able to shoot back once someone starts and perhaps save lives. Yeah because the one time in 137 active shooterincidents is totally worth the cost that open or concealed carry causes. Your fear of a statistically unlikely event leads you to accept far more frequent innocent deaths as a consequence and it is baffling. I personally think everyone should have a gun. At all times. If someone wants to kill someone with a gun, it can be obtained even easier illegally than legally. If they can't get a gun, they will use a knife, or some other form of weapon to kill with. People will still kill other people, look at countries with heavy gun control. You see less guns, but still the same amount of killings. If everyone has a sufficient means to defend themselves then it levels the playing field. If everyone could shoot back, people would be far less likely to rob, steal, or shoot at people to start with since they would likely be shot back by far more people. If a gunman walks into a room and starts shooting at 10 people, if all of those 10 people can shoot back, casualties will be minimal. In the case of 0 being armed, he can literally take his time shooting them with no one to contest him. I hope if you're ever in a situation where someone is trying to kill you, that someone around you has enough sense to carry a weapon to shoot back and save your life. I hope your never in the position to just sit in fear and hope they don't shoot you too. I have no fear, I embrace my right to carry a weapon, and I'll have it ready if I need to defend myself or others should the need arise. Baffling indeed.
Except your base assumptions are not backed up by data.
But let's work down your list.
Easier to get a gun illegally: False. With the gun show loophole any person can by a gun regardless of being disqualified.
Less guns, same amount of killing: Debatable. In the western hemisphere countries with extreme homicide rates have recently been involved in civil wars or armed insurgent actions(that a majority of this happens at the behest of the U.S. is notable, although the causal link is indeterminate) suggests that states with lower levels of state control and a higher density of illegally imported arms spread amongst the population increases homicide rates. Aside from the oddly high murder rate in the Bahamas, the higher homicide rates are in countries where the state has been weakened through outside intervention.
With that said, even if other countries with have similar homicide rates, what they don't have is the tens of thousands who are killed or wounded in the U.S. through accidental shootings. If mass gun ownership does nothing for the homicide rate, but brings with it a shitload of accidental deaths(more than the alleged defense use of firearms prevents them,how is that a social benefit?
People less likely to rob or steal if they suspect people are armed: Nope. It just changes the mechanics of crime. If I need to steal to eat, I need a gun because everyone else might have, first thing I am doing is robbing houses until I find the guy who has a cache of arms in his house. Data on crime dropping in states that have shall issue laws is varied, which suggests that those laws have at best a negligible impact on crime. Some states have reported increases in crime, others a decrease. Given that, it is more likely that crime rates are more affected by other factors than open or concealed carry.
Armed citizens reduce casualties in active shooter incidents: Again, no evidence to back it up. The FBI reports 137 active shooter incident reports up to a couple of weeks ago, only one was stopped by an armed civilian.
Your closing scenario was absurd, because I have military experience and am a gun owner. I've been shot at, shot back, and still don't see open or concealed carry as a societal benefit. Thankfully I live in a country where not being involved in gang activity virtually assures me of being a victim of gun crime.
Do you not drive a car because you might have an accident? You don't fly because of plane crashes right? Don't go to see a doctor because of the possibility of malpractice? Don't go outside when its raining because of lightning strikes?
The Attorney General - Mr. Hybrid Vayu
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General Mosquito
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
418
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 02:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Death Shadow117 wrote:I agree it you and I've been advocating looser gun laws for awhile now. It doesn't matter if you can get a gun legally or illegally it's too easy to get a gin illegally and too hard to get one legally
You can literally get a gun in every state, without a background check. If that is too hard for you, you shouldn't even have a gun in the first place, for your own safety.
The Attorney General - Mr. Hybrid Vayu
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General Mosquito
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
418
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 02:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
That being said it is truly tragic when life is taken under any circumstance especially for something so petty as religious motivation (ironic no considering who I RP). I cannot begin to understand how it must feel for those affected nor those who must endure a culture than seems to inevitably lead to the same terrible place.
This.
The motivations for religious extremism are varied and troubling. Within a week we had the both the "Christian" and "Islamic" ones. I find it curious that whitey gets a pass on his terrorism but brown people don't, although given that it is America we are talking about, I am certainly not surprised by it.
Might as well just keep these sympathy and condolences comments quick to hand with the disturbing regularity of these events.
The Attorney General - Mr. Hybrid Vayu
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General Mosquito
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
418
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 03:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mortishai Belmont wrote:
Well, I should have clarified that pretty much everyone is stupid when it comes down to it, there isn't a person alive who hasn't made a stupid mistake.
Also I guess I should have clarified my use of "everyone", I meant it as a generalization of everyone who can use a gun the right way, should be obligated to carry one. It's been said that evil men only prevail when good men fail to act.
....You really gonna shoot someone over road rage though homie? >.>
Making a stupid mistake when carrying a gun can lead to some pretty serious consequences.
Obligated to carry? Your high.
As to the road rage, it happens. So do people drinking while packing. How many drinks do you trust to shoot straight or make rational decisions?
What's funny is that you assent to some form of control when you say crazy people shouldn't have guns, but right now you don't have to do a background check to get a gun,just make a private purchase.
Your country has two internal crises around guns. The first is the constant tragedy of woundings and deaths due to rampant guns, the second is the inability of your government to respond to it.
The Attorney General - Mr. Hybrid Vayu
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General Mosquito
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
418
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 03:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote:Guys. People have died. Please take your debate elsewhere, as this is not the place for it. This thread is for mourning, remembrance, and condolences. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to send in-game messages or start a chat channel, or maybe make a thread in the Locker Room.
This is EXACTLY the place for it.
These people didn't die in a freak occurance, or in a vacuum. Their deaths were contributed to at least in part by the easy access to firearms.
You properly memorialize them by making an effort to not make them just another stone in the ocean of gun violence that goes on in the states.
Just throwing an o7 and accepting the status quo is an insult to those who died.
The Attorney General - Mr. Hybrid Vayu
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General Mosquito
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
419
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 03:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote:
We may not have much, but this is our version of a funeral. Please show respect and debate elsewhere.
This is like TV coverage of a funeral, since it links to it.
We are the crowd in the bar watching that scenario.
The Attorney General - Mr. Hybrid Vayu
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General Mosquito
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
420
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 16:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mortishai Belmont wrote:
Like I said, I hope your never in a situation where there is a bad man holding a big gun and you can't do anything about it because guns are bad.
Making a mistake with a gun isn't a stupid one, it's a serious one. A stupid mistake doesn't cost someone a life, you shouldn't take a gun out of it's holster for anything other than defence.
Yes, bad people have easy access to guns, so I want good guys to have access to them too.
I don't know where you live, but killing with things are rampant and you government is unable to respond to it. That's like saying suicides would stop if people didn't have guns to shoot themselves with. People wanting to commit an act to kill will use the best means at their disposal. A knife to your kidney will kill just as easy, if not more so, than a gunshot there.
I dare you to tell me that it would have been a bad things for a good man to have been there in a crowd with a gun on him and shot the insane ones before they could have killed someone. Go ahead, say it.
Again, I live in a country with sensible gun laws, so the "bad man" with a big gun isn't something I need to plan for.
Killings are rampant? You mean how the murder rate in your country is at a 50 year low? On, you mean you feel like they are rampant, just like you feel that more guns equals less crime. Nothing to do with facts, you just base your decisions on how you feel about it.
I always love when people compare killing by gun with killing by knife. It is a very simple thing to shoot someone from 50 yards away, and a totally different matter to come to grips with them and put a blade in. But as someone who has been in a real sticky situation you wouldn't know about that.
I don't have to dare to tell you that it would have been a bad thing for an armed citizen to be there to minimize the damage of that rampage, because it is ridiculous on its face. You assume an armed civilian is going to run into a building were gunshots are sounding for no cause and start returning fire? You don't know anything about how civilians react to gunfire. Most soldiersperform poorly through their first couple of engagements, and you expect a random civilian to be tactically adept, reasonably accurate, and exceptionally brave just to not walk themselves into being victim number x. And of course, in the specific example, you are expecting someone to go to a Christmas party strapped. Because the guy who has had a couple of cocktails before everything goes sideways is going to perform well in his first high stress situation.
In exchange for that exceptionally unlikely performance you are willing to deal with the flood of accidents and unintentional deaths from rampant guns in public.
You are using a very unlikely scenario as the justification for routine tragedies and calling that OK. It is utter bullshit. At least 750 people have been killed by concealed carry holders, and in 2/3rds of those the homicide was ruled unjustified. Those numbers are of course much lower than the actual numbers, because several states do not allow tracking data related to what we can call carry killings.
You are trading one set of victims for another. Except that one set of people doesn't have to die, and you would probably reduce the victims of mas shootings if it wasn't so simple for people to get guns in your country.
The Attorney General - Mr. Hybrid Vayu
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