DUST Search - True HAV AV balance

DeathwindRising wrote:

Daemonn Adima wrote:

Again meta/tier locks would solve this problem also.

I don't understand trying to balance mlt/std/adv gear AND proto. A proto swarm/forge user can nearly 1 shot militia tanks or dropships. A proto gear user can nearly instant kill players in mlt/std gear.

This is like car racing in which one would allow unmodded Honda Civics to go up against Formula 1 racecars. It doesn't make any sense and shouldn't be like this.

The biggest "edge" I gained in Dust was finally getting proto mods, a suit and weapons. I went from regularly struggling to kill proto players to killing them quite easily. Mlt/std players melt like butter to my proto fit. Its honestly sad how fast some players die, they literally have no chance at killing me in an encounter.

proto gear is mostly a crutch for actual experience. i regularly use apex suits and cant tell the difference between gear other than their color.

if balancing AV tiers vs vehicle tiers is too much to ask for, then what about removing the tiers? just have one vehicle of each type and then balance the AV against that.


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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2015.12.23 05:39:00 - [1] - Quote In a perfect world a lot of things would be considered. Plates and extenders not being the primary defense of an HAV is problematic. When regen is high and constant, the hardeners are the problem. When it's not, hardeners aren't the problem. Ultimately the problem, regardless of what we all have as our pet theories, is that hardeners provide more value defensively than plates or extenders in all situations. They provide more value the more HP you have on the tank. Reps provide raw hp recovery, and because they are high and constant, the combination is superior to HP adds in all ways when normally more reps = skirmish fit that has no sustained brawling capability. We can bring AV and V to some semblance of parity, with STD balanced against STD and PRO vs PRO, but 1.1 theough 1.7 changed the way tanks worked so much that the AV weapons, which were keyed to kill chromosome tanks, either greatly overperform, or they're the rough equivalent of a spitball launcher with very little in between. Even my AV/V balance proposal is a stopgap in the face of the fact that tanks need to be rebuilt ultimately, dropships as well, and AV retooled to deal with them in an appropriate fashion rather than this seesaw BS we currently deal with. If this were easy, it would have been done already. Because why not?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2015.12.23 23:10:00 - [2] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Daemonn Adima wrote: Again meta/tier locks would solve this problem also. I don't understand trying to balance mlt/std/adv gear AND proto. A proto swarm/forge user can nearly 1 shot militia tanks or dropships. A proto gear user can nearly instant kill players in mlt/std gear. This is like car racing in which one would allow unmodded Honda Civics to go up against Formula 1 racecars. It doesn't make any sense and shouldn't be like this. The biggest "edge" I gained in Dust was finally getting proto mods, a suit and weapons. I went from regularly struggling to kill proto players to killing them quite easily. Mlt/std players melt like butter to my proto fit. Its honestly sad how fast some players die, they literally have no chance at killing me in an encounter. proto gear is mostly a crutch for actual experience. i regularly use apex suits and cant tell the difference between gear other than their color. if balancing AV tiers vs vehicle tiers is too much to ask for, then what about removing the tiers? just have one vehicle of each type and then balance the AV against that. That's what we had before. It worked about as well as what we have now Because why not?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2016.01.01 03:42:00 - [3] - Quote I quit playing ambush when they removed my favorite targets from the game mode. Because why not?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2016.01.20 13:52:00 - [4] - Quote Devadander wrote: I have yet to be popped by a knifer... The nk vehicle damage thing, was always a bad idea imo. The only reason it got deployed was a very vocal group at the time. I understand, they are space future knives... Guess what.. I'm in a space future tank. @Godin. You remember a very different lds than I do. I had my prometheus stacked and skilled. I could bumble in all wood bee style, float right over an objective, and let the team pour out. I honestly used my lds more than any other vehicle back then, due to its nigh-invulnerability. It could take so much punishment. The reps were gimpy, agreed. Getting low enough to use them was garbage. I did enjoy the free mobile cru though. Idk, different strokes I guess. the only successful nova knifings of tanks in-game that I have ever seen were staged by the people involved to "prove" that nova knifing tanks was unfair. pretty much every single nova knifing vid could have been countered by a hard drive into the redline. Imagine a gigantic, shiny bug zapper. Embrace your destiny.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2016.01.21 19:10:00 - [5] - Quote Devadander wrote: Breakin, we need to become better friends. Once I get halfway satisfied here I need help with AV. I'm a master forge operator. I have pro swarms.. I barely use em. And the only thing I've ever killed with a PLC is infantry xD I'd rather have an experts opinion. I'm always game for well-reasoned discourse. Imagine a gigantic, shiny bug zapper. Embrace your destiny.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2016.01.21 22:12:00 - [6] - Quote On a certain level nova knives make sense if you're carving open a hatch to dump a grenade into the crew compartment. Current method lends itself poorly to suspension of disbelief. But that's all in the animations and controls. If we had a titanfall-esque rodeo mechanic (and the ability to use small turrets to burn off the leeches) then we could have NKs cutting in, or commandos tearing engine vents open. Especially if the cost of a tank is a resource authorization that allows a vehicle to be resupplied several times during a battle after you lose one. It's not the concept of NK AV that's idiotic. It's how it works mechanically that grates on my brain. Imagine a gigantic, shiny bug zapper. Embrace your destiny.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2016.01.21 23:49:00 - [7] - Quote NKs used to be the default but no one used them because the charge mechanic never really got figured out by theplayerbase, causing more trouble than they were worth integrated. I want to see different suits get different default melee. Scouts: NK. Assault: rifle buttstroke. Logi: strike enemy to infect with disassembler nanites that EAT YOU. Commando: punching your breastplate out through your butthole. Sentinel: grab and tear a piece of your suit off. Imagine a gigantic, shiny bug zapper. Embrace your destiny.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2016.01.23 05:58:00 - [8] - Quote Devadander wrote: C'mon man...... There's no ONE thing that makes Maddy's so strong. That has been laid out several times in this thread. We are beyond "limiting hardeners" This is accurate. There's some"chicken or the egg" things going on here. Let me give a bit of clarification here: 1: Most of my solutions are predicated on the idea that changing reps from passive to active is not feasible in Man/hour use at this time. This is not an official reason, Rattati has NOT told me I am correct, nor has he told me I am wrong. This is merely a perspective. So if passive reps are not going to be switched to active, then hardeners are absolutely the primary place that we need to look at for the Madrugar. The problem therein lies: If we make active hardeners "One per customer" then a few things must happen alongside that change. The first being the Shield fitting nerfs to vehicles have to be redacted. Is an absolute must-be. 2: Other people Perspective is that passive reps are the root of the issue. I do not necessarily disagree even slightly. But if we assume that altering reps from passive back to active is feasible, then a few things still have to happen. One is the armor speed penalty needs a look-at. Second, the shield nerfs should be revisited, and the Shield Boosters reverted to multi-pulse setups so you cannot trivially shut them down mid-regen. There are other things that other people have focused on. 3: If AV is to be buffed AT ALL, I predicate my suggestions on the need to balance proto to proto, advanced to advanced, standard/militia to standard/militia. I also state that because Alpha damage has such WILD variations in overall effect on different vehicles, the only real adjustment that is feasible to look at is rate of fire. The overall alpha damage of forge guns, for instance, should never go below an assault forge of the appropriate tier, nor over a breach forge gun of the appropriate tier. Other AV weapons absolutely MUST have similar considerations because if you increase alpha, you run the risk of making a two-shot kill on an ADS before the pilot can properly react a reality. three shots (based on assault forge averages) gives an ADS pilot enough reaction time to escape and evade, making that third killshot a true skill shot action on the part of the forge gunner rather than a foregone conclusion. 4: All talk of "AV should always win" or "AV gunners should never be able to solo any vehicle" should be flushed down the shitter because the statements on both sides are bullsht. If a tanker is more skilled than the AV gunner than the clear majority of the time, he should win. If the AV gunner is far more skilled than the tank driver than he should have a reasonable chance (approaching, though not meeting) a 50/50 chance versus said HAV. Any time two or more tanks focus on an AV gunner or a single enemy HAV, it should be a massacre. Any time 2 or more AV gunners simultaneously focus fire on a single vehicle it should be similarly lethal. This talk of absolutes "No soloing tanks" or "Tanks should not be able to smash infantry easily" is a buncha crap that hides one simple truth: People don't like to lose. No one likes to lose, hell I don't like to lose. But bluntly I play DUST for the challenge of hunting skilled vehicle drivers. If there is no avenue for me to win against my chosen prey then it's a sht game. If I always beat the skilled vehicle drivers then it's a godmode simulation, crappy mechanics, and in my opinion, still a sh*t game. But here's the thing to both sides. If you won't give up or compromise anything to have a middle ground, then as we have found in the past, the things you claw so hard at to protect will be taken from you to even things out. It has happened to swarms, it has happened to forge guns, it has happened to tanks, LAVs, Sentinels, Scouts, everything. The harder people fight to keep a lopsided status quo, the fewer people are willing to play, and the higher the likelihood your sandcastle, whatever it is, will be torn down to make room for other people. This is not me saying that this is my intent. This is me saying "if we cannot find any middle ground, then the likelihood of me being able to stop a sandcastle from getting smashed, or mitigating the damage, is very, very slim. Same holds true for darth, kirk, and our successors who have vested interest in the power seesaw between the vehicle/anti-vehicle roles. Imagine a gigantic, shiny bug zapper. Embrace your destiny.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2016.01.23 06:07:00 - [9] - Quote Devadander wrote: But seriously, I have three sheets with different ideas on each. It's getting massive. And doing the maths when I tinker one thing across the vehicle types is tiresome. But if you actually read... You would know I'm not stopping at vehicles. After I get things where I want them, I will collaborate with AV users to tune AV for my proposed changes. This will be all at ccp's mercy in the end... So calm your ****... You have a link to my AV stuff? And I assume that was directed at someone else, because I'm rather open that I consider there to be multiple potential solutions. I merely favor the one that will eat the least developer man-hours. I figure the low-hanging fruit will be looked at the most seriously if and when it comes time to address these issues. Imagine a gigantic, shiny bug zapper. Embrace your destiny.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2016.01.23 06:08:00 - [10] - Quote Devadander wrote: And he doesn't even drive them, folks. We should have been better friends by now. My primary alt that I played until my PS3 killed itself (you bastards see my name and it's dogpile time) is a madrugar driver, I just don't use the double-hardened, double-rep loadout because it pisses me off. Imagine a gigantic, shiny bug zapper. Embrace your destiny.