DUST Search - New Player Experience. Removal of passive skills

Varoth Drac wrote:

Garcon lyfe wrote:

Hahah no.....you mus not play eve because they get all the same advantages on their over new players, Limit gear an call it good, and f you call me one of the proto stompers i swear to god, i have to play losing matches time and time again and i put ******* tons of hours to max the **** out! Just reduce the multiplier on the skills so they are easier for new players to max out.

It doesn't matter that they get advantages in Eve. It doesn't make it a good system in Dust. We can have meaningful progression without handing our major advantages that you don't have to pay any isk for.

The whole point of the isk system in Dust is that some players have advantages over others, but it's ok because they have to pay more isk for it so there is more risk for them.

Giving major advantages to some players over others would be suicide for most pvp fps games. Dust is meant to get away with it because of risk vs reward. The passive skill bonuses are reward without any risk. It's this principle that's important, not exactly copying what they have in Eve. How many times now has it become obvious that you can't just directly copy the mechanics from a sandbox spaceship MMO into a pvp mmofps.

you ever get to that point where you know you should sleep, but ya just...dont? yeah...me too.

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Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.11.20 11:50:00 - [1] - Quote TL/DR: spreadsheet No passives skill tree I think nearly everyone agrees that this game is too tough on new players. This is part of the reason the game's player base doesn't grow. There are many factors that contribute to this problem: I have previously made a thread about helping new players with progression and fitting: New player fitting and progression. Several people have posted threads recently about the possibility of restricting gear use in pub matches, or creating more new player friendly game modes. Gear disparity exacerbates the divide between good/veteran players and new players. Other issues include the poor state of basic frames and the combat bonus provided by the war barge. This thread is about another major factor in poor NPE, passive skills. The advantages high sp characters have over new players is huge. It's not just access to better gear, but the passive bonuses to fighting provided by skill bonuses. Major culprits include the +25% base hp gained from shield and armour skills, and the +15% damage to shields or armour from weapon proficiency. However there are many other minor skills such as module efficiencies and base sprint speed, that all add up to a major advantage. The concept of the Eve universe that we exist in and that Dust is designed around, is that we are not all equal. People can have advantages, but they have to pay isk to get it. This is the concept of "Risk vs Reward". The crucial elements of power are cooperation and wealth. The passive skills break this concept, as these skills give you advantages at no extra cost. Spending an extra 40K isk for a proto weapon for an extra 10% damage is fine. Getting 15% more armour damage from proficiency absolutely free is not fine. I propose rewriting the skill tree to remove bonuses that passively increase the people's direct combat power on the battlefield, without them having to pay extra for it. Fitting skills are ok, as to take advantage of them you need to spend isk on better gear. Advantages are fine, so long as you pay for them. This is essential for risk vs reward. Here is a look at what part of such a skill tree might look like: No passives skill tree Essentially I have reduced the current fitting skills and replaced the passive efficiency, hp and damage bonuses with the fitting reductions removed from the fitting skills. The effect of this should be, that a character with max skills should see no difference to their fittings. The passive skills I have removed would have to be given to the base stats of the dropouts, weapons and modules, to retain functionality and game balance. Several game mechanics don't really work without these increased stats. For example, scanning and dampening wouldn't work without the +50% scan range and -10% profile and precision. Just add them to the base stats. Extra weapon bonuses like sharpshooter and rapid reload, I don't really know what to do with. Perhaps as these are more "soft skills" rather than directly increasing hp, speed or damage, they should just stay as they are. Maybe reduced in value a little. I haven't looked at dropsuit skills. These may be more difficult to replace. I wanted to try to give as much of a per level bonus as I could so that the level 2 and 4 skills aren't worthless. Many dropsuit skills are fitting reductions. Perhaps that's the way to go. I think even if only the weapon and upgrade skill tree passives were removed, leaving the dropsuit skills, this would be a big improvement.
Garcon lyfe G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 112	Posted - 2015.11.20 17:21:00 - [2] - Quote Hahah no.....you mus not play eve because they get all the same advantages on their over new players, Limit gear an call it good, and f you call me one of the proto stompers i swear to god, i have to play losing matches time and time again and i put ***** tons of hours to max the ** out! Just reduce the multiplier on the skills so they are easier for new players to max out. GTC (Galactic Trade Center) The last trading site you will need! http://www.dust514gtc.enjin.com
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.11.20 17:36:00 - [3] - Quote Garcon lyfe wrote: Hahah no.....you mus not play eve because they get all the same advantages on their over new players, Limit gear an call it good, and f you call me one of the proto stompers i swear to god, i have to play losing matches time and time again and i put ***** tons of hours to max the ** out! Just reduce the multiplier on the skills so they are easier for new players to max out. It doesn't matter that they get advantages in Eve. It doesn't make it a good system in Dust. We can have meaningful progression without handing our major advantages that you don't have to pay any isk for.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.11.20 18:46:00 - [4] - Quote EVE has PvE, as well as High, Low, and Null sec. That gives new players the ability to play without being subject to the skill differences if they so choose. Dust has none of that. Even Academy noobs can't avoid dbags who create new accounts just to go in and stomp noobs. I support Varoc's idea. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Iron Balls McGuinty Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.11.20 22:23:00 - [5] - Quote I also agree completely that this game is next to impossible for new players. If I wasn't part of the beta and didn't stop playing for almost 2 years, allowing over 25 million SP to accrue in my absence, I definitely would not have stuck with the game just like the majority of new players do. I say, instead of removing the passives, just make it easier to gain SP. Especially for new players. That way, everyone can specialize in something fairly early on; giving new players a sense of accomplishment instead of making them feel absurdly inferior like they do now. Having started a new character recently , I've really noticed that gaining SP without Aurum boosters and such is painfully slow, and especially frustrating even for a fairly good player such as myself because I'd get slaughtered by the same people that I was getting a 1.5 k/d against only moments before. Also aside from making SP gains faster, I think a skill matching system would be beneficial too. An equivalent to the Public Contracts but for only new players. For example, a new player starts his/her first game. The new player is put into the lowest skill bracket. Once this player's k/d goes up past a certain point, they are bumped to the next bracket and so on. Eventually, after a couple of these transitions, the player is then put into the normal newb-free pool of players so to speak. I think a model similar to this could greatly increase the player base, while also avoiding flooding the skilled players with annoying noobs. I am very glad to see that I'm not the only one who has this point of view. If DUST was a little easier on new players from the beginning, it would've become much more popular in my honest opinion. It's otherwise such a great game.
Vyuru Algintal Core Gallente Federation 290	Posted - 2015.11.20 22:54:00 - [6] - Quote Vehemently opposed. I would rather see a system of High/Low/Null sec put into Dust that limits the type of gear you can field in a match put into place. High Sec = militia/standard Low Sec = advanced and below, includes APEX suits Null Sec = no holds barred
Iron Balls McGuinty Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.11.20 23:00:00 - [7] - Quote Yeah that would be a great addition, however, I don't see why there couldn't be both... Why so strongly against my suggestion?
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 309	Posted - 2015.11.20 23:15:00 - [8] - Quote Pick's up mic Or.........PVE...... drop's mic, exit's the building, LIKE A BOSS! When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2015.11.20 23:42:00 - [9] - Quote This is a stopgap solution that doesn't address things that could balance out the OP's statement. While I agree with Valroth's permise, I disagree on the solution. Here's hoping we can see something workable soon. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.11.21 12:42:00 - [10] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: This is a stopgap solution that doesn't address things that could balance out the OP's statement. While I agree with Valroth's permise, I disagree on the solution. Here's hoping we can see something workable soon. What is it about the idea you don't like? Anyone have any alternative suggestions? I wanted to remove the passive bonuses without removing the progression. I remember that as a new player I really enjoyed the fact that I was constantly able to upgrade my suits as I invested skills. I've tried to maintain that fun progression with the fitting cost reductions per level. As I said, overall it would turn out that you could fit exactly what you can fit now on your suits if you had max skills.

THEAMAZING POTHEAD Nyain San 1	Posted - 2015.11.21 14:30:00 - [11] - Quote militia gear only gamemode. it would literally be all i'd ever play. ever. and i have tons of sp. but i wouldn't give a crap. because any mlt vs mlt combat has always been the funnest things in dust. Your post is making me facepalm. ò.ó Nyan!~~=[,,..,,]:3 Nyain SanGäó (rated ® for rape) is currently accepting hatemails.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.11.21 14:51:00 - [12] - Quote THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote: militia gear only gamemode. it would literally be all i'd ever play. ever. and i have tons of sp. but i wouldn't give a crap. because any mlt vs mlt combat has always been the funnest things in dust. No reason we can't have multiple things to help new players at the same time.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.11.21 16:14:00 - [13] - Quote If I was to play devil's advocate and shoot holes in my own idea, I would say the problems may be: 1) Progression based solely on fitting without any base stat improvements may not be as compelling as we have now. 2) Knowledge and experience of the game will always trump stat disparity. So veteran mercs will always have a large advantage, making gear and skill changes a bit futile.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 12	Posted - 2015.11.21 17:58:00 - [14] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I'd like to see someone defend the 25% extra base hp over a new player, just for having played the game longer. I would rather see new player participation in the 25+mil SP shark tank be voluntary, by squadding with higher SP players or queuing for hardmode matches like FW rather than compulsory as we have in pubs now. 0-10mil bracket, then a 10-20 mil bracket then the shark tank. Doesn't address everything, but most of the NPE torturefest items can be traced back to "welcome to DUST. Meet your opponent: Negative Feedback Squad 2 and 3!" Making the shark tank a matter of choice, as nullsec and lowsec are a matter of choice in EVE, would cut away a lot of BS and allow new players to learn the game more than what we have, where only the most bull-headed thrive. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 7	Posted - 2015.11.21 18:41:00 - [15] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I'd like to see someone defend the 25% extra base hp over a new player, just for having played the game longer. I would rather see new player participation in the 25+mil SP shark tank be voluntary, by squadding with higher SP players or queuing for hardmode matches like FW rather than compulsory as we have in pubs now. 0-10mil bracket, then a 10-20 mil bracket then the shark tank. Doesn't address everything, but most of the NPE torturefest items can be traced back to "welcome to DUST. Meet your opponent: Negative Feedback Squad 2 and 3!" Making the shark tank a matter of choice, as nullsec and lowsec are a matter of choice in EVE, would cut away a lot of BS and allow new players to learn the game more than what we have, where only the most bull-headed thrive. Pretty much. Protect players from SP enriched veterans, don't try to dilute the depth and value to progression. I mean personally, making nearly every skill be a reduction in PG/CPU is not going to make skilling up very exciting for people. "Ohhhh I spent a million SP and now I can get 3 more CPU! Woooo.......wait.." Like I get what you're saying, but there are better options that dont involve castrating the progression system to a point of monotony. Besides you should be happy Dust isn't MORE like EVE. Weapon Operation skills in EVE are +5% damage every level and then Proficiency is +2% fire rate every level. Makes that +15% to Shield or Armor seem a lot more tame. "That little sh*t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati
korrah silain True Illuminate 171	Posted - 2015.11.22 19:29:00 - [16] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Garcon lyfe wrote: Hahah no.....you mus not play eve because they get all the same advantages on their over new players, Limit gear an call it good, and f you call me one of the proto stompers i swear to god, i have to play losing matches time and time again and i put ***** tons of hours to max the ** out! Just reduce the multiplier on the skills so they are easier for new players to max out. It doesn't matter that they get advantages in Eve. It doesn't make it a good system in Dust. We can have meaningful progression without handing our major advantages that you don't have to pay any isk for. The whole point of the isk system in Dust is that some players have advantages over others, but it's ok because they have to pay more isk for it so there is more risk for them. Giving major advantages to some players over others would be suicide for most pvp fps games. Dust is meant to get away with it because of risk vs reward. The passive skill bonuses are reward without any risk. It's this principle that's important, not exactly copying what they have in Eve. How many times now has it become obvious that you can't just directly copy the mechanics from a sandbox spaceship MMO into a pvp mmofps. Except your argument directly referenced eves gameplay and design to support it. Also the advantages you are talking about isn't "for free" its called a level advantage. A staple of any rpg, ever as you level up you get better...and this was meant to be an fps rpg...so...no you ever get to that point where you know you should sleep, but ya just...dont? yeah...me too.


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