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Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.25 23:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Starlight Burner wrote:Mortishai Belmont wrote:Yep, but other wise it's sub-par. Which I guess does make it balanced :3 Right right. So, It's okay to have a OHK rifle in the game. Makes complete ******* sense, how a god damn Scrambler Rifle can just literally obliterate a Caldari suit with 1 charge and 2 or 3 follow up shots. Guess the Armor meta is still a damn thing, 'cause shields are still squishy as ****.
Dont get so grumpy, everything in this thread is the same **** we've been hearing for months, just with a "OH GEE GOLLEE IT GOT NERFED ALREADY ITS SO BAD NOW" thrown in the mix.
The nerf did virtually nothing to it, just made the charge shot slightly more risky if you follow it up.
Tactical rifles are still OP.
There still isnt an anti-armor version of tacticals, so you will continue to get these apologists crying up a storm about how fine it is because they never have to experience their health being obliterated in half a second by the second longest range rifle and if you are lucky enough to survive the opening volley you have to hide behind something and hope they dont get aggressive and dont have grenades. |
Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.26 05:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Forever ETC wrote:Cry some more so this weapon becomes only viable on one suit... Oh wait
Pretty much inevitable because the Amarr suit bonus is so ******* good, the same problem exists with the laser rifle. Anyone with any grasp on balance has been warning about this (including me) even as they have been saying the scrambler needs to be toned down somehow. |
Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.26 06:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Starlight Burner wrote:deezy dabest wrote:LOL this thread still going?
Lets just make it easy and delete the gun completely. Obviously shield users are not going to stop until there is absolutely no counter to them.
Justice and fair play will be served. Either CCP doing it passively or threads continuing to be made. This ScR change did nothing to the alpha OHK of shield suits. Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Oh no, an anti-shield weapon... hurts shields?!
The horror. Give me an anti-armor weapon that devastates armor like the scrambler does to shields. Thank you for showing me exactly why this community just keeps on swirling the toilet bowl. Oh and I challenge you to run and armor suit with zero shield buffer and go fight a combat rifle.
I for one do this all the time, none of my armor based suits even run shield extenders except for my amarr logi, every other suit runs x1 precision x2 damage mods or just straight damage mods if its my amarr sentinel. Combat rifles are no special problem, in fact the scrambler is still scarier because while the CR does more damage over time, the scrambler can zap me down to 200-400 health instantly before I can even register in my conscious mind that Im being attacked due to the charged shot option. |
Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.26 06:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote: I for one do this all the time, none of my armor based suits even run shield extenders except for my amarr logi, every other suit runs x1 precision x2 damage mods or just straight damage mods if its my amarr sentinel. Combat rifles are no special problem, in fact the scrambler is still scarier because while the CR does more damage over time, the scrambler can zap me down to 200-400 health instantly before I can even register in my conscious mind that Im being attacked due to the charged shot option.
The CR was previously the second most powerful weapon in the game behind the ScR. It has easily taken that throne but the RR has been brought much closer to it creating a lightly better balance over all. I personally pointed out the problem with the ScR mechanics which causes that to be the case. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2975995Yet shield users are still allowed to dominate the conversation completely screwing up a new players chance at ever experiencing a unique weapon while also making it pretty crappy even for those who are highly invested in the weapon. Broken mechanics + Piles of input from people who do not even use the weapon. Sounds good to me lets go ahead and keep up the ridiculous old ways of constantly cycling FOTMs hoping to get lucky.
I think the SCR is still probably the best rifle in the game, but I read that thread when you posted it and liked the analysis (though I am not in a position to verify). A good change we could make to the Scrambler would be to delay increased heat per shot and increased damage per shot until the charge is significantly built, so microfiring is not a spoiler in how the weapon works. Love to see this on the ion pistol as well. However as usual I dont get to tell CCP what to do, so **** it.
Regardless that change doesnt change the fact that for shield based dropsuits the scrambler easily does 800+ dps, which is enough to absolutely murder most dedicated shield fits in less than a second, and that does not include charge shots. Compare that to what you say is the second best weapon in the game, the rail rifle, which does about 500 dps to armor fully upgraded and has **** firing characteristics and **** mechanics to boot especially in CQC, compared to the Scrambler which works with pinpoint accuracy throughout its range and has a drawback that generally only comes into play after the target is dead. |
Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.26 06:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Raven-747 wrote:Well I think that you suck. Plain and simple.
Persuasive argument. I'm sure you will be remembered in legend, my friend. |
Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.26 09:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:I am not arguing that the Scrambler is or was balanced only that it is being treated completely incorrectly.
My working theory on the ScR currently is that we should drop the charge multiplier to 2x and increase charge up time. Heat build up would also be scaled back to account for the more shots needed.
This would seriously nerf the ability to just walk around with a full charge on and hope to instantly follow up with a shot or two to finish off the enemy and make it a unique weapon that require managing the charge you put into each shot for maximum efficiency which last I checked was what the ScR is suppose to be. This would also make it far easier to balance without going to the insane lengths we have seen that leave it useless in the hands of unskilled users.
Shield buffer is something very difficult to get into because of the much more complicated mechanics and fits behind it. Balancing versus armor is simply working with buffer and regen while shields have buffer, regen, 2 different delay values, and a damage value which delays one of said regens. With that being said I think shields just need to be made slightly less complicated otherwise they are always going to be either OP or UP. I have skilled into Caldari scout, sentinel, and assault to try to see if there is anything that really stands out as needing a fix but as I am less experienced in them it is something I really can not speak to.
I propose that first we allow shield users to chime in on both a simplification of shields as well as a buff and then go back to the pre-foxfour numbers on the ScR and work back forward.
As it stands right now shield users are unhappy, new players never have a chance to experience the ScR as it is totally inefficient without max skills, and veteran players who are maxed in the ScR find it useless. All in all everyone took a hit on this sweeping change.
I agree with most of what you are saying. After the hotfix shield buffs the suit to suit comparison (scrambler aside) is alot tighter now between shield and armor, alot of the remaining issues lie in overall support options for each suit type, or lack thereof.
One thing I'd dispute though is the claim that the SCR is useless even in the hands of a veteran player with it maxed, if someone genuinely finds it useless I submit that it is the player who is, in fact, useless.
Amarr suit bonus is just too strong to avoid this kind of thing, the same thing exists with some other bonuses, like the Cal/Gal scout bonus which are too weak to perform their function until the skill is at level 5. I dont like this kind of skill but thats the game we have. Would love to see some CPM work to fiddle with these skills so they dont leave the lower skilled players with non-functional suits or weapons that perform dramatically different depending on suit. |
Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.26 18:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Oh no, an anti-shield weapon... hurts shields?!
The horror. Give me an anti-armor weapon that devastates armor like the scrambler does to shields. they are called rail rifles.
Comparing the rail with the scrambler is hilarious, since you are comparing a weapon with front loaded damage and 800+ anti shield dps vs. shields to a weapon that has a front loaded damage DELAY coupled with poor CQC performance coupled with pretty poor ADS performance that runs at about 500 anti armor dps. Funniest part about this is the Scrambler actually does ~70 more dps to armor than the rail rifle does, and that disparity gets worse with damage mods since they are % based.
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Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.26 18:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Emperor LOL wrote:Here let me break it down for you so you understand.
Tac Rifles are not as easy to use as the other rifles since you constantly have to time your shots or spam your trigger finger like a mad man. Every other rifle you simply point, shoot, forget. The current scr doesn't have "pin point accuracy".You can barely keep the thing on target against enemies at range. The overheat is a huge factor, but every time you bring up the weapon you act like it is impossible to overheat.... If it were so easy to manage the heat you would see tons of Scr on the kill feed.... but you don't... cause you CAN overheat. Anyone who claims they can play a game vs good players without overheating once is full of **** just like you sir.
also crying about getting hit with charge shot before you notice is stupid, is he supposed to announce he is going to shoot you? is he supposed to wait until you are ready? what about when someone hits you with a bolt pistol before you notice? The charge shot takes three seconds to charge so if both you and your enemy notice each other at the same time he either spams shots or takes a chance and start charging a shot in hopes they don't miss. Balanced. Get Gud.
Its cute that you tell me to get gud while simultaneously claiming tac rifles are hard to use or overheat is hard to avoid.
"Every other rifle you simply point, shoot, forget. " Utter bullshit especially if we are talking about rail tech, which CCP has seen fit to make bounce around like a kid with ADD on a sugar high 10 bullets into the clip. Keeping rails on target is a constant struggle and requires multiple cease fire/recharges per clip if you want to hit anything with any kind of accuracy.
"is he supposed to announce he is going to shoot you" and "what about when someone hits you with a bolt pistol before you notice": One of the problems with the scrambler is you have the front loaded damage of a bolt pistol but then get to switch to the spam shots of a tactical rifle. With the bolt pistol alone you are stuck with the charge and fire mechanic (in addition you cannot hold charge on a bolt pistol, which is a significant difference), with the TAC AR you are stuck with the trigger spam.
In addition to that the raw dps on the bolt pistol is WAY lower (~220 v. shields and ~300 v. armor) than the raw dps on the scrambler rifle (800-900 v. shields vs. low 500s v. armor).
I agree that the overheat is a factor, but its not nearly as important as people who defend the scrambler seem to think, its pretty simple to avoid overheating and easy to employ cover or your sidearm to simply avoid it entirely unless you want to take a calculated risk with the last scrambler shot (which again is a choice you make, overheat is not forced upon you). |
Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.26 18:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
ShamelessALT wrote:wailing like a babe about a weapon that is currently is only useful on one suit.
The number of suits something is useful on does not address how effective that weapon is and is meaningless in the overall balance unless that suit is meant to be the balancing factor for the mechanics of the weapon (like with heavies and HMGs/Forges). |
Vesta Opalus
PROJECT OF KILLERS. RUST415
1
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Posted - 2015.10.26 21:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Emperor LOL wrote:I cannot take you seriously when you say rail rifles are harder to use then scramblers lmao if you cant point ,shoot, forget then you shouldn't open your mouth on balancing a weapon that requires you to adjust your aim in between shots. You have to adjust your aim regardless, the only difference is for the tacs you have to keep clicking a button and for the automatics you hold it down and deal with whatever kick the weapon has.
Emperor LOL wrote:my little brother who has no real fps experience went 11/3 with a rail rifle...why? Not because of his incredible skills, but because automatic weapons are easy to use. There is no argument you could put together that would prove otherwise.
I dont care how well a skillless noob is with the weapon, what I care about is how much damage good players can do with the weapons, and Im of the opinion the scrambler is far better in the hands of a skilled player than the rail rifle.
Emperor LOL wrote:also when you talk about dps you fail to take into account that it's with 100% accuracy. If you are seriously saying that it is easier to land more shots with a tac rifle then with any other weapon you need to get gud. When you complain about the damage you should think about the fire mechanics of the weapon in question. Would it make sense to have a semi auto weapon with the same damage output as an automatic weapon? Who in their right mind would pick a semi auto that does less or as much damage as an automatic one? who would trouble themselves with timing shots or spamming the trigger when you could just point, shoot , forget.
It is easier to land hits with the tac, the shots from the tac always land on the dot and the kick is very predictable, whereas with the rail rifle the game introduces random jumping kick to the weapon while its firing that gets progressively worse until you stop firing and recharge the weapon. And as for 100% accuracy, who cares? Both weapons are capable of missing and the overall dps is proportional to your accuracy in general, so the dps of the weapon still means something.
You keep repeating that you can just point at the enemy and hold the trigger down, but the reality is with any weapon you need to ensure that your reticle is on the enemy throughout firing, or you will miss. You keep characterizing automatics as point and forget but this is bullshit: both weapons have to be kept on target until you are done firing.
Emperor LOL wrote:Isn't it simple to negate the drawbacks of all the other weapons to? What happens when you can't negate those drawbacks from those weapons.....oh wait nothing. You aren't left nearly immobilized or defenseless and you don't take any damage from them.
When you cant negate overheat you overheat, but the overheat happens after 1k+ damage has been done, which is far more than most suits take before they are dead. Thats why I say the scramblers drawback is largely meaningless because its very avoidable and only comes into play after your enemy is dead.
Emperor LOL wrote:For someone who's trying to argue the weapon is OP, you won't even acknowledge any of it drawbacks like they don't exist lmao your answer to the overheat problem is "Don't over heat". Yea let me just never overheat and do charge shots for days since apparently the weapon is capable of doing so I would love to see you post a game against real competition where you do not overheat once, since it's not even a factor for you then this shouldn't be a problem.
Ive acknowledged the drawbacks of the weapon in the very post you are replying to, but as I said its not as big a drawback as people might like to think. And I dont have to try to argue the weapon is OP, its been acknowledged as over-performing by CCP by data driven evaluation, it IS OP, and nothing you can say is going to change that. |
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