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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.08 22:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Below are two videos, intended for your education and knowledge, of Hotfix FoxFour changes to the Gallente and Caldari Assault roles. As you all probably know by now, the Gallente Assault received a RoF bonus to Assault Rifles while the Caldari Assault received a reduction to Rail Rifle kick/dispersion.
Compare the clips in these videos at your leisure as they have been provided. Feel free to comment with your thoughts.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.08 22:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:I appreciate the video here, but I have a gripe with it: According to rattati's statements on recoil / dispersion no dropsuit ever comes anywhere NEAR close to their maximum recoil / dispersion values with a weapon while standing still and aimed down sights. I get what you're going for with the comparisons, but in my opinion a more accurate comparison would involve strafing left and right while shooting, it would better highlight the benefits that the dropsuit skill gives.
Feel free to make some :)
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.08 23:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:I appreciate the video here, but I have a gripe with it: According to rattati's statements on recoil / dispersion no dropsuit ever comes anywhere NEAR close to their maximum recoil / dispersion values with a weapon while standing still and aimed down sights. I get what you're going for with the comparisons, but in my opinion a more accurate comparison would involve strafing left and right while shooting, it would better highlight the benefits that the dropsuit skill gives. Feel free to make some :) I edited my post, and I would happily make some if I had the hardware to do so. It's somewhat upsetting that you respond to people pointing out a flaw with your method or otherwise critiquing you so poorly aeon.
Are you serious, dude? That response was nothing but sincerity and politeness.
Listen, I work 40 hours a week, I have 15 credit hours in college, I have a dozen other things to do as a CPM rep, and I've got a freelance graphic design thing on the side. I had the time to make those videos today because I don't have homework due to the fact that it's mid-terms week and we had nothing but tests to do.
My bad for not being a super human and having more time to do what others are more than capable of doing themselves. Everyone's a critic until it's their turn to do something
EDIT: Here's the insincere and impolite version you thought you read: I'm not your maid. If you feel like I did something wrong you are more than welcome to do it yourself. If you want to come in here looking for an argument, we can argue, but don't act like I'm being a **** because I tried to encourage you to make the effort to contribute to the community and satisfy your own criticisms.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.08 23:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:I appreciate the video here, but I have a gripe with it: According to rattati's statements on recoil / dispersion no dropsuit ever comes anywhere NEAR close to their maximum recoil / dispersion values with a weapon while standing still and aimed down sights. I get what you're going for with the comparisons, but in my opinion a more accurate comparison would involve strafing left and right while shooting, it would better highlight the benefits that the dropsuit skill gives. Feel free to make some :) I edited my post, and I would happily make some if I had the hardware to do so. It's somewhat upsetting that you respond to people pointing out a flaw with your method or otherwise critiquing you so poorly aeon. Are you serious, dude? That response was nothing but sincerity and politeness. Listen, I work 40 hours a week, I have 15 credit hours in college, I have a dozen other things to do as a CPM rep, and I've got a freelance graphic design thing on the side. I had the time to make those videos today because I don't have homework due to the fact that it's mid-terms week and we had nothing but tests to do. My bad for not being a super human and having more time to do what others are more than capable of doing themselves. Everyone's a critic until it's their turn to do something So we're doing this again eh? You state "hey feedback is awesome" so someone gives you targeted and constructive feedback, you respond with sarcasm, they tell you that it was uncalled for, you cry about things. Why exactly are you on the CPM again? I mean almost every interaction you have with the community goes terribly. Is a "Hey, good point" too hard for you to manage, or do you perceive everything as a personal attack?
Or you could just take what I said for what it was and not try to bait an argument. Yeah, was a good point, sure, but there was nothing hostile, sarcastic, or aggressive in my reply. You assumed that, you made that choice, now we're "doing this again". It was never perceived as a personal attack until you orchestrated it to be - I was being 100% completely sincere and polite in my response. Take it or leave it.
EDIT: Thank you. Was actually having a somewhat half decent day up until now. Congratulations, you got exactly what you wanted. Peace out.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 00:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:It seems that the Gal assaults bonus is far more noticeable .
I've seen so many GK.O's today and now I see why .
Right right. Thinking that we may need to increase the reduction to kick for the Cal Assault. We'll see what happens.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 09:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:It seems that the Gal assaults bonus is far more noticeable .
I've seen so many GK.O's today and now I see why . Right right. Thinking that we may need to increase the reduction to kick for the Cal Assault. We'll see what happens. Because reducing the GA Assault bonus is a non-option? If we're being fair, I've seen more CA Assaults today than AM Assaults and MN Assaults. Perhaps I've misunderstood the goal here, but would it be wise to jump straight to "more buffs" for less-utilized Assaults as opposed to "less buffs" for GA Assault?
CA Assault and GA Assault have nothing to do with one another. CA Assaults having manageable recoil in that they can make use of their racial weaponry should not be determined by how OP or UP the GA Assault, or any suit, may be.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 09:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:It seems that the Gal assaults bonus is far more noticeable .
I've seen so many GK.O's today and now I see why . Right right. Thinking that we may need to increase the reduction to kick for the Cal Assault. We'll see what happens. Haven't had the chance to test, yet does Cal Assault kick reduction have a significant impact on the tactical sniper rifle kick? Or is that more a factor of movement sway, which isn't affected by the Cal bonus. Movement sway reduction might an interesting bonus to look at to encourage more medium range mobile sniping.
Sniper Rifles have 'Snap Back' so the amount of recoil is basically just a placebo effect. The reticle will return to the position it was at prior to pulling the trigger, so it could have so much recoil that it points skyward and it wouldn't really matter because it'd just return to it's previous position.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 12:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
ReGnYuM wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:I appreciate the video here, but I have a gripe with it: According to rattati's statements on recoil / dispersion no dropsuit ever comes anywhere NEAR close to their maximum recoil / dispersion values with a weapon while standing still and aimed down sights. I get what you're going for with the comparisons, but in my opinion a more accurate comparison would involve strafing left and right while shooting, it would better highlight the benefits that the dropsuit skill gives. Feel free to make some :) I edited my post, and I would happily make some if I had the hardware to do so. It's somewhat upsetting that you respond to people pointing out a flaw with your method or otherwise critiquing you so poorly aeon. Are you serious, dude? That response was nothing but sincerity and politeness. Listen, I work 40 hours a week, I have 15 credit hours in college, I have a dozen other things to do as a CPM rep, and I've got a freelance graphic design thing on the side. I had the time to make those videos today because I don't have homework due to the fact that it's mid-terms week and we had nothing but tests to do. My bad for not being a super human and having more time to do what others are more than capable of doing themselves. Everyone's a critic until it's their turn to do something EDIT: Here's the insincere and impolite version you thought you read: I'm not your maid. If you feel like I did something wrong you are more than welcome to do it yourself. If you want to come in here looking for an argument, we can argue, but don't act like I'm being a **** because I tried to encourage you to make the effort to contribute to the community and satisfy your own criticisms. Dude like WTF is your problem? Malleus pointed out a legitimate problem with your video (one that should be really considered), and you just pissed on him for giving reputable feedback. Furthermore, is any actual adult here going cringe at your menacing work-load... no. It's called real life.
Edit: Let's try this again. There was no sarcasm or aggression in my response. As Arkena and Thaddeus stated, dude took it out of context. no animosity, no problems, no bitterness or snide remarks. Just told him without the long arduous explanation as to why to make his own videos. Yeah, menacing work loads are called real life. Finding solutions to your own criticisms, however, is called being an adult. Anyone can find flaws in someone's work but it takes a real pair of balls to get up and do something about it yourself.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 13:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
NextDark Knight wrote:Aeon Amadi great video..
I was wondering if you could do a video where you took a bunch of clones in a row and shot them all to see how many you could kill before the clip exhausts. Just wondering about applied damage at ranges.
They should all be lined up so you wouldn't have to aim.
The tests should be done with gal frontline and cal frontline as the test fire dummies.
When I have the time, sure.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 13:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
argel999 wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Below are two videos, intended for your education and knowledge, of Hotfix FoxFour changes to the Gallente and Caldari Assault roles. As you all probably know by now, the Gallente Assault received a RoF bonus to Assault Rifles while the Caldari Assault received a reduction to Rail Rifle kick/dispersion. Compare the clips in these videos at your leisure as they have been provided. Feel free to comment with your thoughts. Thanks for the vid CPM, by other hand we should watch a Scr/AScr Comparition too, just to see the real nerf.
Hard to do now that the change has already been made. If I had thought about it before hand I would have recorded a video for comparison.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 14:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:CA Assault and GA Assault have nothing to do with one another.
That's an interesting claim. Let's explore it a bit further. Assume for the sake of argument that the post-Foxfour GA Assault is the #1 killer of CA Assaults. If this assumption were true, could we claim that a relationship does not exist between the CA Assault and the GA Assault? Aeon Amadi wrote:CA Assaults having manageable recoil in that they can make use of their racial weaponry should not be determined by how OP or UP the GA Assault, or any suit, may be. If the Rail Rifle and Assault Rail Rifle have unmanageable recoil, how is it that they outsold all other Light Weapons prior to Foxfour? Is it the position of CPM, CCP or Aeon Amadi that CA Assaults can not make use of their racial weaponry on account of unmanageable recoil?
Hit up Kirk. Or Breakin.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 15:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:FactFor months following the Rail Rifle's introduction, it dominated both down range and from the hip in close quarters. Some time later, Rattati increased the hipfire kick of this long-range weapon to make it less effective in close quarters. To this day, the weapon remains more popular than any other Light Weapon ( source, source screenshot). QuestionShould the long-range Rail Rifle excel in close quarters? Aeon Amadi wrote:Hit up Kirk. Or Breakin. Kirk and Breakin are not presently asserting questionable claims or openly proposing moar (potentially harmful) Assault buffs.
E-mail 'em, or hit me up about this at a later time, in a different thread.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 16:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:FactFor months following the Rail Rifle's introduction, it dominated both down range and from the hip in close quarters. Some time later, Rattati increased the hipfire kick of this long-range weapon to make it less effective in close quarters. To this day, the weapon remains more popular than any other Light Weapon ( source, source screenshot). QuestionShould the long-range Rail Rifle excel in close quarters? Aeon Amadi wrote:Hit up Kirk. Or Breakin. Kirk and Breakin are not presently asserting questionable claims or openly proposing moar (potentially harmful) Assault buffs. E-mail 'em, or hit me up about this at a later time, in a different thread. What is wrong with challenging questionable claims and potentially harmful changes when and where they are being asserted and proposed?
Because I know where this leads and I simply don't have the patience or energy for it right this second in a thread that was mostly about some videos to show the comparisons of current bonuses. Sorry.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 18:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: What is wrong with challenging questionable claims and potentially harmful changes when and where they are being asserted and proposed?
Because I know where this leads and I simply don't have the patience or energy for it right this second in a thread that was mostly about some videos to show the comparisons of current bonuses. Sorry. Scrutiny needn't necessarily lead to bickering. There's a possibility that through challenging questionable claims, we might find better overall, mutual understanding. Consider the following examples:
Questionable Claim: [Video] Gal Assault Bonus - Less Control Challenge: Recoil builds the longer fire is sustained; initial AR recoil is negligible. Would the same "lack of control" demonstrated in the video be observed with pulse fire?
Questionable Claim: [Video] Cal Assault Bonus - Negligible benefit in ADS Challenge: While this very well may be the case, is it safe to claim "negligible benefit" without comparative pewpewing at actual targets at varying ranges?
Questionable Claim: CA Assault and GA Assault have nothing to do with one another. Challenge: Is it safe to claim that the population and performance of one has no affect whatsoever on the population and performance of the other?
Questionable Claim: Sniper Rifles have 'Snap Back' so the amount of recoil is basically just a placebo effect ... they could have so much recoil that it points skyward and it wouldn't really matter. Challenge: Assume two snipers are pewpewing at a moving target downrange. One wields a tactical sniper rifle with zero recoil. The other wields a tactical sniper rifle that points skyward after each shot. Which sniper has a higher likelihood of placing back-to-back shots on target? Assuming perfect accuracy, which of the two snipers would be first to empty his magazine on target?
Technically all weapons have snap-back so pulse firing will always result in an optimal experience. Assault Rifles, for instance, had a video in which a player was using a modded controller to pulse-fire at the same RoF as it would be if he had just held down the trigger. The result was no difference in RoF, but the weapon never received muzzle climb, and stayed on target. You can try this out with any weapon in the game, just hold down the trigger, be wary of where you were aiming before you started firing, and watch where the reticle goes whenever you let go of the trigger.
With Sniper Rifles, the snap-back and recoil are based on fire-rate. The Tactical Sniper Rifle, having a much faster fire rate, returns to it's prior position faster than the vanilla sniper rifle and therefore can land shots in rapid succession. If we homogenized the vanilla sniper rifle's RoF with the Tactical's, you'd see similar performance.
The snap-back is something I really hate in Dust 514 because it is easy to abuse and makes recoil fundamentally useless unless you just like holding down the trigger. However, because of this, might as well just assume that all players pulse-fire their weapons. with that assumption the rail rifle becomes an outlier due to the fact that it must be charged up first, and therefore is much more difficult to pulse fire and remain accurate.
I understand the desire to keep it as a long-range weapon. With the consideration that the charge-up prevents pulse-firing to some extent, the only way to allow the Cal Assault to fire accurately long enough to make kills is to reduce the recoil and allow them to fire on targets long enough to apply lethal damage application. That's the basis for the recoil reduction.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 19:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: What is wrong with challenging questionable claims and potentially harmful changes when and where they are being asserted and proposed?
Because I know where this leads and I simply don't have the patience or energy for it right this second in a thread that was mostly about some videos to show the comparisons of current bonuses. Sorry. Scrutiny needn't necessarily lead to bickering. There's a possibility that through challenging questionable claims, we might find better overall, mutual understanding. Consider the following examples:
Questionable Claim: [Video] Gal Assault Bonus - Less Control Challenge: Recoil builds the longer fire is sustained; initial AR recoil is negligible. Would the same "lack of control" demonstrated in the video be observed with pulse fire?
Questionable Claim: [Video] Cal Assault Bonus - Negligible benefit in ADS Challenge: While this very well may be the case, is it safe to claim "negligible benefit" without comparative pewpewing at actual targets at varying ranges?
Questionable Claim: CA Assault and GA Assault have nothing to do with one another. Challenge: Is it safe to claim that the population and performance of one has no affect whatsoever on the population and performance of the other?
Questionable Claim: Sniper Rifles have 'Snap Back' so the amount of recoil is basically just a placebo effect ... they could have so much recoil that it points skyward and it wouldn't really matter. Challenge: Assume two snipers are pewpewing at a moving target downrange. One wields a tactical sniper rifle with zero recoil. The other wields a tactical sniper rifle that points skyward after each shot. Which sniper has a higher likelihood of placing back-to-back shots on target? Assuming perfect accuracy, which of the two snipers would be first to empty his magazine on target? Technically all weapons have snap-back so pulse firing will always result in an optimal experience. Assault Rifles, for instance, had a video in which a player was using a modded controller to pulse-fire at the same RoF as it would be if he had just held down the trigger. The result was no difference in RoF, but the weapon never received muzzle climb, and stayed on target. You can try this out with any weapon in the game, just hold down the trigger, be wary of where you were aiming before you started firing, and watch where the reticle goes whenever you let go of the trigger. 1. With Sniper Rifles, the snap-back and recoil are based on fire-rate. The Tactical Sniper Rifle, having a much faster fire rate, returns to it's prior position faster than the vanilla sniper rifle and therefore can land shots in rapid succession. If we homogenized the vanilla sniper rifle's RoF with the Tactical's, you'd see similar performance. The snap-back is something I really hate in Dust 514 because it is easy to abuse and makes recoil fundamentally useless unless you just like holding down the trigger. However, because of this, might as well just assume that all players pulse-fire their weapons. with that assumption the rail rifle becomes an outlier due to the fact that it must be charged up first, and therefore is much more difficult to pulse fire and remain accurate. 2. I understand the desire to keep it as a long-range weapon. With the consideration that the charge-up prevents pulse-firing to some extent, the only way to allow the Cal Assault to fire accurately long enough to make kills is to reduce the recoil and allow them to fire on targets long enough to apply lethal damage application. That's the basis for the recoil reduction. 1. I think I understand what you're saying now. The "recenter speeds" of Sniper Rifles are derived from their respective fire intervals. I didn't realize that; thanks for the info. Still, I wonder if less recoil might help Tac SR performance; seems like it'd be easier to "re-aquire" moving targets if they remained in frame. 2. I don't know that I can agree with this one. The RR and ARR were killing quite nicely long before Foxfour came around. As a frequent user of these weapons, I don't believe it a fair characterization to suggest that their users have experienced difficulty applying lethal damage. These are really good guns, Aeon, and their popularity has persisted even through nerfs. I personally think it'd be a bad move balance-wise to make them better from the hip, even if that benefit were limited to a single frame.
Wonder if we record data on range with which the most kills occur. might be a deciding factor.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 20:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:
I hadn't thought of that but now that you mention it I've already experienced what your talking about. The ARR before had such long range that you could fire it outside of other rifles' range and so the inability to tap/burst it for accuracy didn't matter. But now it's in the same neighborhood as more accurate rifles that can keep snapping back and restarting kick/spread growth. I didn't know what UPness I was feeling but I think that was it.
A Cal Assault with ARR against Amarr Assault with ASCR will get facer@ped now because the Cal Ass has to engage in basically the same range as ASCR, but the Amarr can tap/burst while the Caldari has to hold the button down while kick/spread builds up (the bonus seeming to have negligible affect on this).
My early impression is that the ARR is garbage now, and the RR isn't at all better hipfiring. The latter is mitigated somewhat by the SCR being nerf hammered. That is, the SCR has a similar handicap as the RR now, though it's balanced between hipfire and ADS more on SCR. As for the ARR though, the TAR, CR, and ASCR are all better options in its range. More damage and more accuracy from all of them.
Looks to me like TAR, CR, and ASCR will dominate the meta for a while. (Range still rules in Dust.) ARR and SCR have suddenly gone the way of the dodo.
If the TAR becomes a thing, I'll be happy. It's the second least used rifle in the entire line-up.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 21:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:zzZaXxx wrote:
Looks to me like TAR, CR, and ASCR will dominate the meta for a while. (Range still rules in Dust.) ARR and SCR have suddenly gone the way of the dodo.
It seems like you haven't gone against a GK.O with a breach yet . That AR was always my favorite but now seeing it on a Gal assault , it totally turns me off how OP it is . Maybe the developers need to start conversing with the community about how to and what needs balancing and stop looking at the numbers and listening to whom ever they have been listening to because things sound good until implemented and then unnecessary back tracking is involved to change the changes causing more time and effort . If we can put the bias aside and have constructive discussions , I believe that would change the environment and the nature of the game , perhaps bringing things more in line without the constant nerf and buff cycle . People always want to bring up numbers and graphs but that doesn't translate to what happens on the ground for the most part and it seems like the developers always seem to backtrack to clean up what was changed for what was supposedly to be the better . Yes you will see a lot of TAC AR's and Breaches in the kill feed for sure .
Feedback is only half the story and the Pareto Principle usually applies. That being said, if the numbers coincide with the community feedback than it would stand to reason that backtrack would be necessary. Won't know until some time has passed and the spike in fitting diversity evens out some.
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 22:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jesus ******* christ, fine, I won't upload anymore videos if thats what i tt takes to end this petty foolishness. This is ridiculous.
MY BAD YO - DIDN'T MEAN TO START A RIOT BY SHOWING PEOPLE THE EFFECTS OF THE BONUSES
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.10.09 23:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Or if we're confused about something we could ask for clarification...we don't even have to go with the best option of choosing to give people the benefit of the doubt. You seem to have quite a bone to pick with Aeon.
Lot of people have a bone to pick with me. Incidentally it's always those people that do about nothing other than criticize the work of others and then backtrack saying it's "feedback" despite feedback having never been asked for. Reminds me of those dudes who walk around with rifles/carbines slung over shoulder prancing about open carry laws when they're really just wanting to pick a fight with the cops. Or maybe those guys who feel the need to start giving a street musician musical advice.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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