DUST Search - [Videos] Gal/Cal Rifle Comparisons

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

What is wrong with challenging questionable claims and potentially harmful changes when and where they are being asserted and proposed?

Because I know where this leads and I simply don't have the patience or energy for it right this second in a thread that was mostly about some videos to show the comparisons of current bonuses. Sorry.

Scrutiny needn't necessarily lead to bickering. There's a possibility that through challenging questionable claims, we might find better overall, mutual understanding. Consider the following examples:

Questionable Claim: [Video] Gal Assault Bonus - Less Control

Challenge: Recoil builds the longer fire is sustained; initial AR recoil is negligible. Would the same "lack of control" demonstrated in the video be observed with pulse fire?

Questionable Claim: [Video] Cal Assault Bonus - Negligible benefit in ADS

Challenge: While this very well may be the case, is it safe to claim "negligible benefit" without comparative pewpewing at actual targets at varying ranges?

Questionable Claim: CA Assault and GA Assault have nothing to do with one another.

Challenge: Is it safe to claim that the population and performance of one has no affect whatsoever on the population and performance of the other?

Questionable Claim: Sniper Rifles have 'Snap Back' so the amount of recoil is basically just a placebo effect ... they could have so much recoil that it points skyward and it wouldn't really matter.

Challenge: Assume two snipers are pewpewing at a moving target downrange. One wields a tactical sniper rifle with zero recoil. The other wields a tactical sniper rifle that points skyward after each shot. Which sniper has a higher likelihood of placing back-to-back shots on target? Assuming perfect accuracy, which of the two snipers would be first to empty his magazine on target?

Technically all weapons have snap-back so pulse firing will always result in an optimal experience. Assault Rifles, for instance, had a video in which a player was using a modded controller to pulse-fire at the same RoF as it would be if he had just held down the trigger. The result was no difference in RoF, but the weapon never received muzzle climb, and stayed on target. You can try this out with any weapon in the game, just hold down the trigger, be wary of where you were aiming before you started firing, and watch where the reticle goes whenever you let go of the trigger.

1. With Sniper Rifles, the snap-back and recoil are based on fire-rate. The Tactical Sniper Rifle, having a much faster fire rate, returns to it's prior position faster than the vanilla sniper rifle and therefore can land shots in rapid succession. If we homogenized the vanilla sniper rifle's RoF with the Tactical's, you'd see similar performance. The snap-back is something I really hate in Dust 514 because it is easy to abuse and makes recoil fundamentally useless unless you just like holding down the trigger. However, because of this, might as well just assume that all players pulse-fire their weapons. with that assumption the rail rifle becomes an outlier due to the fact that it must be charged up first, and therefore is much more difficult to pulse fire and remain accurate.

2. I understand the desire to keep it as a long-range weapon. With the consideration that the charge-up prevents pulse-firing to some extent, the only way to allow the Cal Assault to fire accurately long enough to make kills is to reduce the recoil and allow them to fire on targets long enough to apply lethal damage application. That's the basis for the recoil reduction.


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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.08 22:54:00 - [1] - Quote Nice video, Aeon. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.09 02:10:00 - [2] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: It seems that the Gal assaults bonus is far more noticeable . I've seen so many GK.O's today and now I see why . Right right. Thinking that we may need to increase the reduction to kick for the Cal Assault. We'll see what happens. Because reducing the GA Assault bonus is a non-option? If we're being fair, I've seen more CA Assaults today than AM Assaults and MN Assaults. Perhaps I've misunderstood the goal here, but would it be wise to jump straight to "more buffs" for less-utilized Assaults as opposed to "less buffs" for GA Assault? Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.09 14:39:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: CA Assault and GA Assault have nothing to do with one another. That's an interesting claim. Let's explore it a bit further. Assume for the sake of argument that the post-Foxfour GA Assault is the #1 killer of CA Assaults. If this assumption were true, could we claim that a relationship does not exist between the CA Assault and the GA Assault? Aeon Amadi wrote: CA Assaults having manageable recoil in that they can make use of their racial weaponry should not be determined by how OP or UP the GA Assault, or any suit, may be. If the Rail Rifle and Assault Rail Rifle have unmanageable recoil, how is it that they outsold all other Light Weapons prior to Foxfour? Is it the position of CPM, CCP or Aeon Amadi that CA Assaults can not make use of their racial weaponry on account of unmanageable recoil? Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.09 14:51:00 - [4] - Quote Fact For months following the Rail Rifle's introduction, it dominated both down range and from the hip in close quarters. Some time later, Rattati increased the hipfire kick of this long-range weapon to make it less effective in close quarters. To this day, the weapon remains more popular than any other Light Weapon (source, source screenshot). Question Should the long-range Rail Rifle excel in close quarters? Aeon Amadi wrote: Hit up Kirk. Or Breakin. Kirk and Breakin are not presently asserting questionable claims or openly proposing moar (potentially harmful) Assault buffs. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.09 16:17:00 - [5] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Fact For months following the Rail Rifle's introduction, it dominated both down range and from the hip in close quarters. Some time later, Rattati increased the hipfire kick of this long-range weapon to make it less effective in close quarters. To this day, the weapon remains more popular than any other Light Weapon (source, source screenshot). Question Should the long-range Rail Rifle excel in close quarters? Aeon Amadi wrote: Hit up Kirk. Or Breakin. Kirk and Breakin are not presently asserting questionable claims or openly proposing moar (potentially harmful) Assault buffs. E-mail 'em, or hit me up about this at a later time, in a different thread. What is wrong with challenging questionable claims and potentially harmful changes when and where they are being asserted and proposed? Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:34:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: What is wrong with challenging questionable claims and potentially harmful changes when and where they are being asserted and proposed? Because I know where this leads and I simply don't have the patience or energy for it right this second in a thread that was mostly about some videos to show the comparisons of current bonuses. Sorry. Scrutiny needn't necessarily lead to bickering. There's a possibility that through challenging questionable claims, we might find better overall, mutual understanding. Consider the following examples: Questionable Claim: [Video] Gal Assault Bonus - Less Control Challenge: Recoil builds the longer fire is sustained; initial AR recoil is negligible. Would the same "lack of control" demonstrated in the video be observed with pulse fire? Questionable Claim: [Video] Cal Assault Bonus - Negligible benefit in ADS Challenge: While this very well may be the case, is it safe to claim "negligible benefit" without comparative pewpewing at actual targets at varying ranges? Questionable Claim: CA Assault and GA Assault have nothing to do with one another. Challenge: Is it safe to claim that the population and performance of one has no affect whatsoever on the population and performance of the other? Questionable Claim: Sniper Rifles have 'Snap Back' so the amount of recoil is basically just a placebo effect ... they could have so much recoil that it points skyward and it wouldn't really matter. Challenge: Assume two snipers are pewpewing at a moving target down range. One wields a tactical sniper rifle with zero recoil. The other wields a tactical sniper rifle with so much recoil that his weapon points skyward after each shot. Which sniper has a higher likelihood of placing back-to-back shots on target? Assuming perfect accuracy, which of the two snipers would be first to empty his magazine on target? Is it safe to claim that different degrees of sniper rifle recoil do not and cannot matter? Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.09 19:16:00 - [7] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: What is wrong with challenging questionable claims and potentially harmful changes when and where they are being asserted and proposed? Because I know where this leads and I simply don't have the patience or energy for it right this second in a thread that was mostly about some videos to show the comparisons of current bonuses. Sorry. Scrutiny needn't necessarily lead to bickering. There's a possibility that through challenging questionable claims, we might find better overall, mutual understanding. Consider the following examples: Questionable Claim: [Video] Gal Assault Bonus - Less Control Challenge: Recoil builds the longer fire is sustained; initial AR recoil is negligible. Would the same "lack of control" demonstrated in the video be observed with pulse fire? Questionable Claim: [Video] Cal Assault Bonus - Negligible benefit in ADS Challenge: While this very well may be the case, is it safe to claim "negligible benefit" without comparative pewpewing at actual targets at varying ranges? Questionable Claim: CA Assault and GA Assault have nothing to do with one another. Challenge: Is it safe to claim that the population and performance of one has no affect whatsoever on the population and performance of the other? Questionable Claim: Sniper Rifles have 'Snap Back' so the amount of recoil is basically just a placebo effect ... they could have so much recoil that it points skyward and it wouldn't really matter. Challenge: Assume two snipers are pewpewing at a moving target downrange. One wields a tactical sniper rifle with zero recoil. The other wields a tactical sniper rifle that points skyward after each shot. Which sniper has a higher likelihood of placing back-to-back shots on target? Assuming perfect accuracy, which of the two snipers would be first to empty his magazine on target? Technically all weapons have snap-back so pulse firing will always result in an optimal experience. Assault Rifles, for instance, had a video in which a player was using a modded controller to pulse-fire at the same RoF as it would be if he had just held down the trigger. The result was no difference in RoF, but the weapon never received muzzle climb, and stayed on target. You can try this out with any weapon in the game, just hold down the trigger, be wary of where you were aiming before you started firing, and watch where the reticle goes whenever you let go of the trigger. 1. With Sniper Rifles, the snap-back and recoil are based on fire-rate. The Tactical Sniper Rifle, having a much faster fire rate, returns to it's prior position faster than the vanilla sniper rifle and therefore can land shots in rapid succession. If we homogenized the vanilla sniper rifle's RoF with the Tactical's, you'd see similar performance. The snap-back is something I really hate in Dust 514 because it is easy to abuse and makes recoil fundamentally useless unless you just like holding down the trigger. However, because of this, might as well just assume that all players pulse-fire their weapons. with that assumption the rail rifle becomes an outlier due to the fact that it must be charged up first, and therefore is much more difficult to pulse fire and remain accurate. 2. I understand the desire to keep it as a long-range weapon. With the consideration that the charge-up prevents pulse-firing to some extent, the only way to allow the Cal Assault to fire accurately long enough to make kills is to reduce the recoil and allow them to fire on targets long enough to apply lethal damage application. That's the basis for the recoil reduction. 1. I think I understand what you're saying now. The "recenter speeds" of Sniper Rifles are derived from their respective fire intervals. I didn't realize that; thanks for the info. Still, I wonder if less recoil might help Tac SR performance; seems like it'd be easier to "re-aquire" moving targets if they remained in frame. 2. I don't know that I can agree with this one. The RR and ARR were killing quite nicely long before Foxfour came around. As a frequent user of these weapons, I don't believe it a fair characterization to suggest that their users have experienced difficulty applying lethal damage. These are really good guns, Aeon, and their popularity has persisted even through nerfs. I personally think it'd be a bad move balance-wise to make them better from the hip, even if that benefit were limited to a single frame. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 16	Posted - 2015.10.09 21:48:00 - [8] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: I don't see any sources backing up the supposed fact that the RR dominated close quarters. Oh, OK. They must've nerfed its hipfire for no reason. Oopsies. Carry on. PS: How 'bout that GalLogi permascan? Great work there, Zatara. Maybe when it's fixed down the road, we can point back to now and claim that it wasn't really a problem. Dropsuit Usage Rates