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Symbioticforks
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.12 04:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I personally feel that the failures of the sniper rifle are too intrinsically tied to core issues like movement not having inertia, low framerate and poor hit detection to be reasonably hotfixed.
I don't even know the state of thing these days. However, the last time I was around these parts. CCP went over the top with headshot damage multiplier which only needed a small buff, and almost completely ignored increasing base damage. They also reduced the charge sniper rifle clip size from 5 to 3. Which made the Rifle obsolete when you could spam fire 5 bullets from a standard sniper rifle praying for headshots and do just as well if not better. Reducing the magazine size from 5 to 3 on the charge made the weapon incapable of killing some heavies without reloading if you hit the body on all 3 shots. Those extra bullets were needed, especially considering the lag / framerate issues of the game.
Anyway, if CCP had listened to me, and accepted my proposed damage scaling I feel this would be a lot less of an issue. Also the unrequested (unchangeable) Sniper Rifle Cross Hair change, was super annoying as well.
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Symbioticforks
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.17 16:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Medical Crash wrote: just git better. don't be a cowardly sniper skrub in the 1st place and ull be good. the real fights happen up close..... 
THIS.. makes up a large portion of the player base. THIS.. has been detrimental to snipers since launch.
Mountain Dew and Doritos have laid claim on his soul.
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Symbioticforks
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.17 16:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Symbioticforks wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I personally feel that the failures of the sniper rifle are too intrinsically tied to core issues like movement not having inertia, low framerate and poor hit detection to be reasonably hotfixed. I don't even know the state of thing these days. However, the last time I was around these parts. CCP went over the top with headshot damage multiplier which only needed a small buff, and almost completely ignored increasing base damage. They also reduced the charge sniper rifle clip size from 5 to 3. Which made the Rifle obsolete when you could spam fire 5 bullets from a standard sniper rifle praying for headshots and do just as well if not better. Reducing the magazine size from 5 to 3 on the charge made the weapon incapable of killing some heavies without reloading if you hit the body on all 3 shots. Those extra bullets were needed, especially considering the lag / framerate issues of the game. Anyway, if CCP had listened to me, and accepted my proposed damage scaling I feel this would be a lot less of an issue. Also the unrequested (unchangeable) Sniper Rifle Cross Hair change, was super annoying as well. Hit me up on Skype tomorrow, bring your sniper bros, we'll hash out ideas.
I probably checked back too late. I apologize. There's likely no meaningful change they could make to the game at this point to get me to open my wallet to CCP again. (aside from a PC port which is the only reason I came back for the officer weapons contest, in hopes I would be playing this game for years to come) However as I recall you were there for the Red Wedding of Dust 514. I hope CCP is paying for your trip to Iceland this time around.
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Symbioticforks
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.18 06:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Preface, I haven't played this game in quite some time. Certain constants may have changed quite a bit. The following is how things were and to a large degree how I feel things should be. I recall what balanced looks and feels like. If that's your aim then please read on ahead.
Sniper Rifles at the start of the game were well balanced. (except the 750m range) It was important / required that your team had a few snipers to at the very least to counter the enemy teams snipers. It was a needed role. I know right? Can you even imagine that?
The formula that was followed for damage was this (or very close to this)
The damage chart below assumes Militia vs Militia / Standard vs Standard / Advanced vs Advanced / Prototype vs Prototype.
4 -5 body shots from a tactical SR - to kill a heavy [each shot taking away one fifth of a heavys hp] TANK +1
4 body shots from a standard SR - to kill a heavy [each shot taking away one fourth of a heavys hp TANK+1
3 body shots from a charge SR - to kill a heavy [each shot taking away one third of a heavys hp] TANK +1
3 body shots from a tactical SR - to kill a assault [each shot taking away one third of an assaults hp] TANK +1
2 body shots from a standard SR - to kill a assault [each shot taking away ABOUT HALF of an assaults hp] TANK +1
2 body shots from a charge SR - to kill a assault [each shot taking away MORE THAN HALF of an assaults hp] TANK +1
2 body shots from a tactical SR - to kill any scout [each shot taking away ABOUT HALF of a scouts hp] TANK +1
2 body shots from a standard SR - to kill any scout [first shot taking away MORE THAN HALF of a scouts hp]
1 body shot from a charge SR - to kill any scout. [first shot should kill them outright] TANK +1
The 2 places where I mention "ABOUT HALF" Think like 54-63% of someones hp.
The 2 places where I mention "MORE THAN HALF" Think like 69-80% of someones hp.
Infantry really liked their damage mods early on, however if you went light on damage mods for additional shield extenders or armor plates all levels of advancement being even, you could effectively add enough hitpoints to your suit to sustain another round of sniper fire. Not every suit against every sniper rifle, but most. (see TANK+1) You cannot counter everything all at the same time, however you do not need to kill a sniper in order to counter one. Sacrificing some aspects of your build to stack hp could greatly reduce your risk of being picked off. However I'm not here to talk about how to counter sniping.
This formula is what felt fair. If you got hit by a sniper you had to find cover, thankfully this game provides huge maps and near infinite amounts of cover, compared to the finite amount of elevated sniping locations.
Headshots? What should those be like?
If the base damage is following the formulas up above. Double damage was appropriate. Meaning against armor that multiplier will be higher, and against shields lower. Most players learned the lesson to never to stand still. Given the framerate and hitbox issues, headshots were a luxury. Something you lead with on a target who doesn't know you're trying to snipe them. The moment they realize they're being targeted however most people flail around like a fish out of water, making headshots much less relevant than body shots. (at that moment) To not increase base damage significantly to combat the increased effective hitpoints of all suits throughout the updates, was pure folly. The fix sniper rifles got in the past was ALL IN on HEADSHOT damage. Which it only needed a slight buff to. CCP adopted the term "precision weapon" to specifically refer to it as a headshot only weapon. As if hitting targets consistently with a SR doesn't already require tons of intuition, patience, and precision. Not sure if you noticed, but the gun doesn't work well as a headshot only weapon, that's never been it's intended use. I say this from experience. You change the weapon completely when you buff headshot damage through the roof and don't address base damage. It's a completely different gun. So of course you're having issues with it.
When doing double damage with a headshot, the typical follow up will always be a bodyshot. If that headshot misses and you instead hit their body, your follow up will likely be another bodyshot. You of course look for opportunities where your target stands still in which case you can switch over to attempting a headshot if the next body shot won't finish them off. However, to keep someones shields from regenerating body shots are required. That's kind of a huge deal. I'm just pointing this all out to insist that again, headshots are a luxury. Not the primary mode of engagement sniper rifles. Given, I spent a ton of time actively searching for stationary targets, however those weren't generally quality targets that were winning the match for the enemy team. To kill "GOOD PLAYERS" you need body shots to do meaningful damage.
Snipers used to be a good counter to scouts. Then they added cloaking. And now players can jump super high too? Scouts used to be just quick, so hitting them between cover was difficult. Alas, this has been the way of the sniper since launch. Constantly getting indirectly nerfed by everything else getting buffed in one way or another, to address issues, create parity, or counter issues in no way related to sniping.
Issues not addressed : Range, Sniping Locations, Reticle, Clip Size, and Fog / Weather effects.
Those all factor into having a useful enough weapon to spawn with.
TL;DR
Make base damage on sniper rifles meaningful. And for headshots double that meaningful damage. Not some all in on headshot monstrosity that makes even the worst player instantly good at counter sniping.
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Symbioticforks
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.18 20:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
A brief collection of thoughts on Range Reduction and Red Line Snipers.
A friend of mine says the thing that ruined sniping in Dust 514 was the reduced range sniper rifles received awhile back. (anything less than 600m) He stated that snipers originally provided a strong but unpredictable influence. That the majority of the player base complaining wanted to essentially ruin a beautiful thing and turn Dust 514's battlefield into Call of Duty. Even after the ranges were reduced I forced myself to make things work. Sniping with each range reduction made it less dynamic, but for someone like myself I still found ways to have fun, although I wouldn't expect most people to be that sadistic.
I never had an issue with red line snipers. My friend noted how they made up the majority of my kills. They were far from immune when ranges were closer to 600m. Aside from that, red line sniping was often unproductive. Most red line snipers were averaging 10 kills and one death. Outside of the red line I would average 2-3x that ratio. Thanks to anti-sniper map designs sometimes the best place to snipe was most certainly inside your red line. And if you were bad or new to sniping that was the most intuitive place to start. Once ranges were reduced a majority of red line snipers found themselves immune to the front line snipers like myself. They were simply too far away to kill with my sniper rifle. I could see them still, just not shoot them. The fact that they would still light up, but not be in range was rather infuriating. It was inadvertently another layer of protection given to red line snipers. They too would suffer from shorter ranges, but anyone trying to counter snipe them would have to present themselves openly in order to do so? (and more than likely from a lower elevation) Done.
The players who sniped and switched out of sniping, never complained about snipers. You or anyone else ever notice this? Says my friend. They often thought they weren't good at sniping or couldn't figure out how to make a meaningful contribution with such an underwhelming weapon with so few locations to snipe from. It just wasn't fun. So many people just didn't do it.You know what else isn't fun? Getting only 10 kills from your red line. Not killing enough people to influence the outcome of the game. People play the game for different reasons granted. Some people don't play to win. The reward structure in casual matches didn't promote the importance of winning, so non-contributors could easily exist.
You can fix base damage, but that won't make the weapon useful. It needs that range, to create options for the player..To perhaps be somewhere less than predictable, and further away than your'e willing to run on foot. Part of stealth for me was being far away and out of immediate danger. If I couldn't be far away I would at least be out of reach or vice versa.
Still worried about red line snipers though? Just not sinking in?
There are any number of ways to kill an enemy sniper. Most of the deadly (competent) snipers were fielding full prototype when I played, and you could grief them into changing suits by simply killing them once or twice. (back when ISK meant something) I feel that may no longer be the case.
-Attack Drop Ships / Drop Ship
-Orbital Strike
-Suicide Rush
-Forge Gun
-Rail Tank
-Counter Snipe (forget about this one since range reductions, would have been the easiest way to deal with them though)
And besides killing the sniper
-Use Cover
-Stay Mobile
-Vehicles
-Stay in the City
-Cloaking
- Stack HP
If you think you can run around like Rambo all the time without getting hit by a sniper, no matter where they are the problem lies with you and your play style.
I could say quite a bit more on these two topics, but I already feel bad for anyone who bothered to read this.
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Symbioticforks
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 04:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Union118 wrote:I honestly think that rhe sniper rifle is in a good spot. Im able to two shot just about anything and im using a Thale. Every headshot works and bodyshots almost kill heavies on one shot. So to me its good. Only complaint is kick and sway after shot cuz then you have to realign the next shot and it takes skill to get the second shot on the target cuz they would move after the first if standing still.
Two things stick out with this..
"and I'm using a Thale" - officer gear should be better than "the standard" not the baseline for a sniper rifle should be doing.
"bodyshots almost kill heavies on one shot" - what?
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Symbioticforks
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 04:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Samantha Hunyz wrote:Symbioticforks wrote:A brief collection of thoughts on Range Reduction and Red Line Snipers.
-snipe-
I have to totally agree on this. When I started playing this game, all I wanted to do was snipe. I would always be on the map usually in an elevated position, keeping the bulk of the blue dots between myself and the reds. On a bad match I would get 15 kills, 15 assists. Any time a squad member would call out a redline sniper, I didn't even have to move to dispatch them. 1500wps and 20+ kills, 1-5 deaths per match was about my average using this technique. Since the range, map, and mood nerf, It seems that the only snipers affected were the on the map snipers. Redline snipers are still present. The difference is on the map snipers have to choose to move closer to multiple reds to deal with one redline sniper, or stand back and leave em alone. I play this game like chess. I am the queen, and the blueberryies are my pawns shielding me. Therefore I am not moving forward to die instantly to a hail of fire to try to take out one guy. I die enough as is. I used to assign my own threat levels to locations depending on red and blue positioning, elevation, and other elements to figure out were I needed to be. I would wager high risk high reward locations when my team was pushing hard on the enemy. I'd fall back to lower, low reward locations when my team gave up or was simply outclassed. My best games were when both sides came to fight and were both relentless. Sure I'd die more trying to get into more aggressive locations to better aid my team and to try and prevent my blueberries from being flanked. Lol, I almost forgot about that part of sniping. Slowing or denying players from pulling off flank maneuvers. The range nerf stopped that flat out. At this point, even if range was reintroduced, and damage was normalized it still would not give sniping back those said roles. All the maps and sockets post 1.4 were completely anti-sniper made. Big complexes high walls, little to no high ground to see in except for very small pockets of possible opportunity if fighting was done in specific location. Sniping used to have a few roles, but in game design and decisions made the SR obsolete. The main factors of the SR no longer having any are due to the range reduction, poor socket design, placing towers in front of elevated positions to block sniper locations, many hp increases, trying to balance sniping because of redline sniping (even though they were puppychow for big dog snipers). TL;DR The old SR role before nerfs were killing, suppression, assisting in damaging enemy, counter-sniping, and reducing flanking enemies. Post nerfs, lol FU HTFU get gud, sumtin sumtin redline trololololo.
This was a good read.
I've never bothered to outline all the roles sniper filled. Progressively with one change or another those roles were removed. New players coming to Dust 514 have no idea, other than the weapon isn't worth dedicating yourself to it.
Unlike.. Remote Explosives?
(that's just too funny to me)
People were dedicated to those when they were strictly Utility, I don't dare begin to imagine the current game state..
Sorry to keep bumping, I'll stop posting unless it's some rant to shed insight.
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Symbioticforks
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.10.23 20:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Proto should be destroying Militia.
That's balanced. (character progression)
If you want to run around in a plastic trash bag and call it a suit. You will be punished. If not by the sniper, by anyone else with a weapon.Time to kill against militia should be dramatically less. It takes almost no time to get into advanced level suits. It takes even less time to buy aurum suits. Trying to save money by running around in Militia when your enemy has chosen to risk Prototype loss will have you at a disadvantage. That's the way it's always been.
Constant scope sway wouldn't be good in Dust 514. Sniping has no variable zoom, would make long range shots impossible. If you added in the holding your breath mechanic to steady your aim for a moment, perhaps. Not advocating that at all. That would be yet another complete rework of sniping nobody is asking for.
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