DUST Search - To CCP/CPM: Will there ever be a sniper rifle hotfix?

Breakin Stuff wrote:

3: Draw Distance. This is the big kahuna right here that everyone misses but contributes to the difficulty of countering snipers. There is no weapon that renders infantry past 175m (including the forge gun) that is not another sniper rifle. If the sniper is not rendered to the target this means also that the sniper shot contrails which have been used in the past to track snipers back to be countered, also do not render. Most light weapons do not render infantry past about 120-150m, period.

#3 often makes it IMPOSSIBLE to retaliate against a sniper whether in the redline or on a hill crest to the side in a valid engagement area. Because if you cannot render it, you cannot see it, which means killing it is impossible. Is this the fault of sniper players?

Absolutely not. Draw distance limits were a memory-saving response that was used to keep the game from going too choppy. But it creates it's own balance problems. The draw distance limit was why thale users in the past with 500m+ optimal/absolute ranges could not be killed by anyone except another thale user. Because they could sit in the redline 200-250m back, sight in a high traffic area and kill with impunity, and other sniper rifles could perform similar feats, albeit with more difficulty, was why sniper rifle ranges were nerfed to force snipers to come to ranges where someone approaching the redline CAN RENDER THEM and retaliate.

Quote:

4: The redline. Snipers can hide so deep in the redline that killing one requires either another sniper rifle, or a willingness to sacrifice an entire fitting to kill one upon success, much less if the sniper manages to kill you and survive. This has historically been a MAJOR and valid complaint that snipers could kill with impunity but killing them back means you have to die in a fit to get them. Or you had to countersnipe them.

When the only counter to something is itself, you have an imbalance that MUST be addressed.


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Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 28	Posted - 2015.10.06 22:56:00 - [1] - Quote Zan Azikuchi wrote: Except I'm not asking for more damage, especially not reduced sway, either increased range or maybe reintroduction of sharpshooter skills to increase the range, or maybe the ability to tag my enemies, so that my allies can see their location's, that's all I'm asking for. It's more upsetting to see an enemy within the scope and know he's going to get away with everything he want's like some spoiled teenager from a rich family, all because your allies aren't on comm's or are too ignorant, or unaware to know where the enemy is at. If not able to kill them, at least give us the ability to tag em'. I would agree with this. From a Caldari point of view, limiting how far you can be away from your target is prejudicial to the way Caldari operate, and therefore directly attacking one of the racial archetypes in the game. There should be no red line. The red line is an artificial construct which directly influences Caldari tactics. Instead, there should be some arbitrary limit to the maps which is so far outside the range of SRs as to be effectively nonexistent. There has to be a limit to the maps, obviously, because no system has infinite memory to host an infinite map. The SR range at the moment, for each individual SR is probably not bad, for starter skills, but as Zan states, should be increased by sharpshooter skills to be more like the 1-2km that real sniper rifles can manage - only with every relevant skill maxed out of course. As for the contention I've read elsewhere in this thread that the SR is not a role, no of course it's not. It's a rifle. But the sniper IS a role. You can't treat a SR like any other rifle - it's the only one that has very specific issues with sway, can't hit the side of a barn at point blank range without the scope, and is only semi-automatic, with no auto function of any form. Most people don't have a clue how to properly use a SR. The people who claim the sniper is not a role in the game are doing so because in their minds no such role exists. And to support that, CCP has acquiesced to nerfing the SR and the game boundary to lessen the role. But that role is the Caldari role. In EvE it's called "kiting". Caldari specialise in sniping. Not from any arbitrary boundary, but from the absolute limit of their range. If you want to level Caldari sniping, the way to do it is to remove the constraints so that would be snipers have to snipe from within the limits of their range not from within the boundary of a map.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 31	Posted - 2015.10.06 22:59:00 - [2] - Quote BARAGAMOS wrote: Zan Azikuchi wrote: Except I'm not asking for more damage, especially not reduced sway, either increased range or maybe reintroduction of sharpshooter skills to increase the range, or maybe the ability to tag my enemies, so that my allies can see their location's, that's all I'm asking for. It's more upsetting to see an enemy within the scope and know he's going to get away with everything he want's like some spoiled teenager from a rich family, all because your allies aren't on comm's or are too ignorant, or unaware to know where the enemy is at. If not able to kill them, at least give us the ability to tag em'. That seems like something that would give guys with sniper rifles a more rounded purpose and make them more useful on more maps without amping up the actual gun itself. So maybe some combination of abilities that make snipers not feel like your team is down a man is the right answer. Try "down 5-10 men"!! Here I have to agree with the anti-sniper crowd to an extent. I'm sick of dying again and again and again in battle wondering where all the troops are, since I can find noone anywhere, and finally grab my sniper fit to see if I can be useful there, only to find all the blues scattered around the hills around the map. It really does give one a feeling of futility.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 31	Posted - 2015.10.06 23:18:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: 3: Draw Distance. This is the big kahuna right here that everyone misses but contributes to the difficulty of countering snipers. There is no weapon that renders infantry past 175m (including the forge gun) that is not another sniper rifle. If the sniper is not rendered to the target this means also that the sniper shot contrails which have been used in the past to track snipers back to be countered, also do not render. Most light weapons do not render infantry past about 120-150m, period. #3 often makes it IMPOSSIBLE to retaliate against a sniper whether in the redline or on a hill crest to the side in a valid engagement area. Because if you cannot render it, you cannot see it, which means killing it is impossible. Is this the fault of sniper players? Absolutely not. Draw distance limits were a memory-saving response that was used to keep the game from going too choppy. But it creates it's own balance problems. The draw distance limit was why thale users in the past with 500m+ optimal/absolute ranges could not be killed by anyone except another thale user. Because they could sit in the redline 200-250m back, sight in a high traffic area and kill with impunity, and other sniper rifles could perform similar feats, albeit with more difficulty, was why sniper rifle ranges were nerfed to force snipers to come to ranges where someone approaching the redline CAN RENDER THEM and retaliate. So you're saying that because of the platform, or perhaps difficulty in programming the code, this whole sniper role was nerfed, a role with is fundamental to the Caldari's racial tactics? Nice one. I might add that I'm not surprised, I suspected as much myself, but I didn't think you'd outright just say it. This is pure racial prejudice, using the supposed limitations of the platform as a vehicle. And it brings back into the light the endless calls for a port - then there would be no excuse. Quote: 4: The redline. Snipers can hide so deep in the redline that killing one requires either another sniper rifle, or a willingness to sacrifice an entire fitting to kill one upon success, much less if the sniper manages to kill you and survive. This has historically been a MAJOR and valid complaint that snipers could kill with impunity but killing them back means you have to die in a fit to get them. Or you had to countersnipe them. When the only counter to something is itself, you have an imbalance that MUST be addressed. No! It does not have to be nerfed. The only counter to a sniper IS another sniper, always has been always will be. That's the nature of a sniper. Anything else is an artificial arbitrary construct. OK so this is a game but as far as I understood it was supposed to be as realistic as possible. Having a red line in the first place is ridiculous. You stray outside the redline and you are magicly killed in an instant after some cosmic timer has gone off. I'd accept that if the red line was so far away as to be well outside the range of any weapon in the game, even SRs which have the ability with training to range to 2km. When the red line is an arbitrary construct that kills you just for being there and not with any form of degradation over the 20s or so you're there but instantly at the expiry of that time, is just ridiculous. I don't accept that you can't put the redline much further out. You don't have to have every single point on the map in memory the whole time. You can have just a "kernel" of it in memory and the rest loadable as necessary. Yes it would take more programming, which is a whole other issue, but it's doable, and would eliminate this ridiculous red line.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 38	Posted - 2015.10.08 11:15:00 - [4] - Quote Zan Azikuchi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Asakura wrote: The only counter to a sniper IS another sniper, always has been always will be. That's the nature of a sniper. First part of the statement is a game balance problem. Second part of the statement is an outright fallacy. But in most shooter's, if not all, the only counter to a sniper, is in-fact, another sniper. Even in the Battlefield Series, most of the counter-play against sniper's, IS a sniper. Let me put it in terms of EvE ships - Caldari "kite" at maximum range from their targets, like a sniper, keeping at distance. The best counter to that is another Caldari with greater range, a sniper that can snipe from a greater range. But Gallente can outpace Caldari ships generally, and get inside their range, hitting with their blasters (most powerful weapons in the game, but short range). The equivalent is a scout with a powerful rifle, hunting for the sniper. The red line is an issue. As an artificial construct, the sniper can sit behind the opposing team's red line, so they can't approach close enough to hit with powerful short range weapons. So in Dust, the only counter to a sniper is a counter-sniper. But if the red line issue was dealt with, there would be theoretically no place where a sniper could go that some enterprising scout couldn't find them.
Alena Asakura Caldari Logistics Reserve 38	Posted - 2015.10.08 11:36:00 - [5] - Quote With regard to the discussion on the nature of the physics of sniping, I've thought a lot about this. I totally agree that the physics should be addressed. It's just not reasonable for higher range weapons out to 2km to not be effected by the environment - chaos theory says that there has to be a probability component to whether or not a hit is made. However, we should understand this isn't really "bullet physics", when we're talking about energies that are high enough to form a plasma on impact of the projectile. I have no problem at all with the idea of straight line trajectories, because the speeds are so high that even at 2km the drop in trajectory due to gravity would not be noticeable. What would be noticeable, however, would be the chance element, which can be introduced as a simple random number generator function of range, from an optimal range effected by skills as well as the weapon with 100% hit, out to maximum range where the effective hit probability would be 0, again, effected by skills. Sniper isn't point-and-hit in real life, and shouldn't be in this game. It would be so ridiculously easy to implement this. I see the redline issue as being more of a problem than implementation of proper projectile physics or hit probability.