DUST Search - Why not drop K/D and replace it with ISK efficiency?

xavier zor wrote:

BARAGAMOS wrote:

xavier zor wrote:

lets be realistic here.

We have over 20 different and far more important core mechanics and bugs to fix before we start looking at minor things like the UI interface.

Notice the first kid worried about this has slayer in his sig....

Also, to remove the actual stat from your player profile would take about 20 minutes to code out if you were really worried about it looking good. So nice try on the misdirection.

If this game is going to move forward it has to feel like a different kind of FPS. Tracking tired old stats that other games track when they are not even relevant to the game seems like a step in the wrong direction. We should be emphasizing the mercenary feel of the game. Not the same old stats COD or HALO tracks. Besides is it wrong for a guy to die 4 times trying to hack a point for the win instead of sitting back and nursing his K/D and watching the defeat screen pop up? It should depend on if he went ISK negative for the game not K/D to determine the answer to that.

Any other metric would be better served on your profile, even win/lose ratio. The other stats such as WP/death or ISK efficiency would validate many other roles in the game. Don't get me wrong, I player slayer a great deal of the time and its not hard to queue into pubs with 3 other guys and stomp if you want or just snipe/tank/ADS for kills. So, its not even a good measure of usefulness to a team. Slaying is the hardest way to earn WPs and not always remotely the most useful. Even at 20 kills its still just 1000 WPs, and a logi can pump that out in no time DOING activities that usually contribute more to winning than the guy that goes 10/1 or even 20/1. Same for scouts.

they will have to add a whole new section on the leader boards, remove it form your player profile, change EoM screens, replace the KD/R algorithms....a HELL of a lot more than 20 minutes....lol you have never coded before by the looks of it. It isn't just about coding as well; you have to plan out the time it will take to code, state things in paperwork such as specification so the 'higher powers' in your workplace can review the code and confirm it does what is specified, error trapping is a huge one...and if an error is found it can be a pain to fix.

no it doesn't just take 20 minutes buddy.


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BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 161	Posted - 2015.09.10 01:24:00 - [1] - Quote Seems to me that one way to stop stat padding is to start actually tracking stats that matter. K/D has no effect on the actual game and in fact promotes very bad behavior. It is also a terrible measure of player effectiveness. ISK efficiency, however, gives a very clear picture of what as mercenaries we should be most concerned about. IS THE PLAYER MAKING MONEY??? Even as a CEO you would want guys that generate higher ISK amounts for corp taxes. It does no good to have a guy that goes 2:1 K/D, but in real games that's 10/5 and losing 350K ISK per game if they are running proto and still losing money even if its just advanced . Even 3:1 or 4:1 does not matter if you have to burn 2 million in proto gear to achieve it. I am just confused why we are tracking the wrong stat or why one that has no bearing on the game is even tracked. Not tracking K/D takes out incentives to pad K/D in pubs through stomping/syncing, gives less incentive to only redline snipe, and makes running proto a risk even for people with way too much money. It also makes a lot more sense flavor wise. We are mercenaries. Our cash flow is our most important feature. Even WP per death would be a better metric than K/D. I have pondered this for a long time and thought I would just mention it here.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 165	Posted - 2015.09.10 03:00:00 - [2] - Quote xavier zor wrote: lets be realistic here. We have over 20 different and far more important core mechanics and bugs to fix before we start looking at minor things like the UI interface. Notice the first kid worried about this has slayer in his sig.... Also, to remove the actual stat from your player profile would take about 20 minutes to code out if you were really worried about it looking good. So nice try on the misdirection. If this game is going to move forward it has to feel like a different kind of FPS. Tracking tired old stats that other games track when they are not even relevant to the game seems like a step in the wrong direction. We should be emphasizing the mercenary feel of the game. Not the same old stats COD or HALO tracks. Besides is it wrong for a guy to die 4 times trying to hack a point for the win instead of sitting back and nursing his K/D and watching the defeat screen pop up? It should depend on if he went ISK negative for the game not K/D to determine the answer to that. Any other metric would be better served on your profile, even win/lose ratio. The other stats such as WP/death or ISK efficiency would validate many other roles in the game. Don't get me wrong, I player slayer a great deal of the time and its not hard to queue into pubs with 3 other guys and stomp if you want or just snipe/tank/ADS for kills. So, its not even a good measure of usefulness to a team. Slaying is the hardest way to earn WPs and not always remotely the most useful. Even at 20 kills its still just 1000 WPs, and a logi can pump that out in no time DOING activities that usually contribute more to winning than the guy that goes 10/1 or even 20/1. Same for scouts.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 167	Posted - 2015.09.10 03:28:00 - [3] - Quote Summa Militum wrote: Why not just add ISK efficiency as a stat and still keep the KDR? I have a decent KDR (2.30) and I earned it while pretty much only running solo and by not ever padding my KDR. My KDR is legitimate and can be used as one of many factors to accurately make an assessment on how I play this game as a slayer. Plus what is to stop people from padding an ISK efficiency stat? I have already heard of people placing their own personal limitation on how much ISK they are willing to invest in a match before they give up; I have heard numbers as low as 100,000 ISK. Why keep it? Its meaningless in a game like this. Slayer is really a bad attitude toward the game. You can only win one game mode by slaying alone. You should be incented to do MORE. Slayers can't get into many fights if they have to spawn back at the MCC. The scout/logi or whatever that died to place those uplinks done more to win the game than a "slayer" going 10/1 with just one action. Not saying I don't understand the working on you K/D issue. I did as well, but now I find it really easy to go 20+/4 or less if you don't care about winning. Its even easier in squads, and the truth is if you are truly trying to win you will die a lot more often. Those one hit kills (knives, REs, shot guns, etc) will happen much more often if you in the thick of the battle, so its harder to safely pad K/D. You want people to put personal limitations on their ISK spending. If you are going to go ISK negative you are going to have to put your proto away or accept that your STATS will reflect it. For example I was in a game a couple days ago with Sax and killed him three times in his full get up. He still went 20/4 but in reality he never approached an actual objective and lost over a million ISK. So is 20/4 the stat that matters or the fact that you have to go bankrupt and not actually participate in trying to win to achieve that K/D. This does not affect the way someone choses to play the game, but it gives a better picture of the real players. Instead of incenting mercs to play team death match on the flanks every game and never get near an objective.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 167	Posted - 2015.09.10 03:35:00 - [4] - Quote xavier zor wrote: BARAGAMOS wrote: xavier zor wrote: lets be realistic here. We have over 20 different and far more important core mechanics and bugs to fix before we start looking at minor things like the UI interface. Notice the first kid worried about this has slayer in his sig.... Also, to remove the actual stat from your player profile would take about 20 minutes to code out if you were really worried about it looking good. So nice try on the misdirection. If this game is going to move forward it has to feel like a different kind of FPS. Tracking tired old stats that other games track when they are not even relevant to the game seems like a step in the wrong direction. We should be emphasizing the mercenary feel of the game. Not the same old stats COD or HALO tracks. Besides is it wrong for a guy to die 4 times trying to hack a point for the win instead of sitting back and nursing his K/D and watching the defeat screen pop up? It should depend on if he went ISK negative for the game not K/D to determine the answer to that. Any other metric would be better served on your profile, even win/lose ratio. The other stats such as WP/death or ISK efficiency would validate many other roles in the game. Don't get me wrong, I player slayer a great deal of the time and its not hard to queue into pubs with 3 other guys and stomp if you want or just snipe/tank/ADS for kills. So, its not even a good measure of usefulness to a team. Slaying is the hardest way to earn WPs and not always remotely the most useful. Even at 20 kills its still just 1000 WPs, and a logi can pump that out in no time DOING activities that usually contribute more to winning than the guy that goes 10/1 or even 20/1. Same for scouts. they will have to add a whole new section on the leader boards, remove it form your player profile, change EoM screens, replace the KD/R algorithms....a HELL of a lot more than 20 minutes....lol you have never coded before by the looks of it. It isn't just about coding as well; you have to plan out the time it will take to code, state things in paperwork such as specification so the 'higher powers' in your workplace can review the code and confirm it does what is specified, error trapping is a huge one...and if an error is found it can be a pain to fix. no it doesn't just take 20 minutes buddy. Funny but that undergrad degree in computer science hanging on my office wall makes me laugh at your ignorance. 20 minutes and done. Its not hard to stop items from tracking or posting. Sorry you like the pet stat but it has no place on a money based Roleplaying FPS. Obviously the vast majority of responders seem to like this for a reason. Because guys like you who only worry about one play style are killing the game on many levels. I love shooting as well, but the game is not won by simply slaying. Do you see K/D on eve???
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 168	Posted - 2015.09.10 03:54:00 - [5] - Quote xavier zor wrote: HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA OMG I AM CRYING SO HARD RIGHT NOW!!!1 LOL comparing a shooting FPS game to a strategic role playing game LOL!!!! 'Do you see KD in ~~Eve~~in a PC strategic role playing game with realistic economy? Hey, look I can say I am experienced and have a degree in computing as well. I have been coding mainly in C++ and variants for 14 years, with distinguished marks in several competitions I have taken place in. you must be 15, kids always think they know what they are talking about Not going to argue with the ignorant, or uneducated..."error trapping????" C++, Some high level language there, if you are working on a college project...but anyway sorry you are personally butt hurt that your favorite stat is under scrutiny. The bottom line is this is a RPG FPS, note the skill system and different roles. This game aspires to be a ground combat version of EVE, and tracking the wrong stats does not reinforce that feel. There is nothing wrong with shooting the hell out of the other team, its just tracking K/D gives the game the wrong feel and incents for actions that do not directly correspond into wins. As for the personal attacks, only one of us is acting like a 15 year old and blathering on about topics he obviously knows nothing about. Still chuckling though about the competitions....I'll stick to ACTUAL work experience in the field. Bottom line is still that K/D is giving players the wrong impression of what is important. End of game boards are fine, but tracking beyond that places emphasis on a part of the game that does not promote teamwork, winning, or the NPE.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 168	Posted - 2015.09.10 04:05:00 - [6] - Quote xavier zor wrote: I am not talking to holy perfection, scrubby scammer. @Baragmos Your original argument was that it would take 20 minutes to implement.Then you started making things up to defend your scurbu-ass. It does not take 20 minutes to remove the KDR stat from start to finish. I am going to be the mature one here as always and leave it at that. It is only in one place on your profile. lol. 20 minutes is probably including a coffee break. Hell, you could just cover it with the background mesh and leave it there. Nothing wrong with leaving it everywhere else, so not only do you not have any real knowledge of coding you also seem to have some literacy issues as well. Read the posts kid, and TRY to understand the bigger issue here, or better yet just stop posting because your "scrubbiness" is cluttering up what was an other wise constructive discussion by real adults with real concerns.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 177	Posted - 2015.09.10 17:11:00 - [7] - Quote Press Attache wrote: BARAGAMOS wrote: Funny but that undergrad degree in computer science hanging on my office wall makes me laugh at your ignorance. 20 minutes and done. Its not hard to stop items from tracking or posting. Sorry you like the pet stat but it has no place on a money based Roleplaying FPS. Obviously the vast majority of responders seem to like this for a reason. Because guys like you who only worry about one play style are killing the game on many levels. I love shooting as well, but the game is not won by simply slaying. Do you see K/D on eve??? This isn't a money based roleplaying anything. It is a lobby shooter with some economics playing in the background. Ever since the apex suits came out isk efficiency means almost nothing. And yes the game is won by slaying. If you can't kill the proto squad near the objective, no amount of isk efficiency is going to get you the win. I get your point though, you can't slay, so you want to remove it as a metric to not feel bad about yourself. Just buy an apex suit and laugh at your isk efficiency compared to those playing to win. Edit: Of course you see k\d in eve. In fact it was so important to players they built their own websites for it with all data. Dumbass my K/D is higher than yours... I have no issue slaying, but you obviously have trouble reading. K/D serves no purpose as a metric in this game and yes dumbass the financial motivation is what makes you a mercenary. Man the average IQ on here is like 50. The point is that even tracking K/D on your profile gives players incentive to adopt terrible play styles. Slaying alone will win you exactly one game mode. Like I said before, if you are spawning in the MCC all day you won't be slaying anyone, so someone has to place those links and hack the CRUs. The logi that reps the heavy and dies 5 times while the heavy goes 12/1 is just as important the actual gunner. And no kid, there is no K/D in EVE for a reason. Some kids care on EVE so they make their own websites for it. There are always going to be dim wits like you who miss the point of some things, so they track a useless stat to compensate for their bad play style. K/D contributes very little to a team's victory, and in fact, often hinder it. Sorry you have a pet metric that excuses your inability to actually be good at the game, which means going ISK positive over the long term. The real 'Slayers" will shine under that metric. The tryhards who crutch proto and officer will standout as posers because you cant point to an irrelevant stat to support your game play. K/D is a stat for games without an economy.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 177	Posted - 2015.09.10 17:26:00 - [8] - Quote Press Attache wrote: howard sanchez wrote: The players that worship the KD stat and are hostile towards those players that recognize the true diversity and complexity of viable play styles in DUST, these people will not be swayed...they are young radicals who are effective at the small wedge of game experience they excel in. Dust needs slayers. Keep these guys at the front and focused on the color red. You get them posting on forums and great drama and confusion ensues. Only 26 letters in the alphabet but slayers use less than 15 on average. Don't get them riled up on forums please. I love the proposal for tracking isk efficiency and WP/clone. That would be amazing for the game. WP/clone, I believe, more closely mirrors MU than KDr ever will. Just don't get the fear and defensiveness stirred up amongst the slayer class. They really think they run dust and they'll rage quit if they believe they're not first in the lunchline. You can't talk down to people talking about k/d when you generate a measly 148 wp every time you die. Considering you have a sub .6 k\d, I expected a lot more wp out of you. The OP is better with his k/d, but his wp/d output is even worse than yours. For people jabbering about how other stats matter more, you guys both have crap stats in every category. I used to do nothing but mcc afk to farm SP before uprising launched and I play 90% of my matches solo, but I still have win loss ratios that eclipse both of you. All the stats matter, and you both have stats that would make people question what you actually being to the table. Funny because I'm looking at your stats and you are wrong on all accounts... You realize we can look those up too right? You are some guy's terrible alt... I hope. In any event try reading the landslide of posts on this thread, maybe the two brain cells you are working with will digest the general topic. No one says you win games without slaying, its just that being the only stat that is really tracked gives players the wrong impression of what matters and how to play the game. Winning and Cash flow are the metrics that should matter. You as a Merc care about cash flow and the people who contract you should care about wins. Right now there is a disconnect between the game and the flavor of the game. Its a Roleplaying FPS with an economy, so tracking stats the way tradional FPSs do makes no sense. K/D is also a terrible metric of how effective you actually are in a match. I can start a sniper alt tomorrow and in two weeks be 25x K/D. Does that mean I'm god at the game? Hell no, I may be a danger to anyone on high ground, but I am zero danger to any objective. Same for just pawn camping or flank camping. The point is for CCp to start actually using metrics that matter and incent positive team based game play. K/D does not incentivize you to actually participate in the battle. Its better for your K/D to roof camp/snipe/hold fire to KS/never hack an objective/red line tank/etc. The point of this discussion is to start using a stat that makes people want to play in a more holistic and inclusive way. Sorry you are butt hurt about a discussion, but grow up and try to actually add something to a topic or stay quite so you don't look as dumb as you have so far on this thread.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 177	Posted - 2015.09.10 17:39:00 - [9] - Quote Genral69 death wrote: Why just why? Surly you know if you make profit in a match so why on earth would you need it to show up in stats, don't get me wrong its not a bad idea but there's nothing wrong with kdr so why bothering replacing it with something . For anyone about to abuse me of being a kdr padder , I honestly would say I enjoy looking at my kdr going up as competition between friends but id say I'm not a padder as I look at the risk of the situation. Not weather my kd would go up but weather its worth the risk. Is it worth the isk taking on several people on at once just for a possible hack (this often relies on green/blue support) Read the posts and you will see why it should be replaced. I love seeing my K/D climb as well, but in truth it correspond very little to good game play. In fact it encourages the behavior that we want to discourage, Roof camping/ redline sniping/ holding fire to KS/ ADS spamming/ Red line tanking/ spawn camping/ refusal to hack installation or objectives/ etc. If it was only there at the end of each battle then people will focus on the metric that is displayed to other people. K/D feeds ego and so would another metric. The key is finding the right way to promote good game play through a metric that would do that. Because in all honesty a guy going 20/4 in pubs but losing 1mill ISK to do it is just lying to himself and his K/D is lying to the world about his game play. It also means that over time his K/D is unsustainable unless he is draining corporate assets to hide his inability to go ISK positive. So as much as I enjoy watching my K/D climb its giving players (especially new players) the wrong goal to pursue.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 177	Posted - 2015.09.10 17:58:00 - [10] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Talos Vagheitan wrote: I love the idea of ISK efficiency +1 Honestly, isk efficiency is a side note when compared to winning. PC for example cares NOTHING about ISK efficiency, it's about winning match. If you think somehow ISK efficiency will affect the outcome of pubs, I'll flat out tell you yr dead wrong. So now you go people running lesser gear or sniping in the redline to improve their isk efficiency rating, or avoid conflict all together rather than pushing for a win. It's no different from KD/R and would lead to the same results. While it would be a cool stat, it would do nothing for the game as a whole. Would just be another stat people could strive for, the same way they strive for high KD/R and in the same ways. I think maybe the point is that no matter what metric is used K/D is sending the wrong message. The other metrics may not be perfect and anything can be padded (albeit not as easily as K/D), but they offer a better picture of what makes a "good" player. K/D applies to a very small subset of the game's roles, but is seen as a blanket to cover everyone's contribution. In all honesyt even if another metric did not replace it the removal of it would have a positive effect on the game. Just one more guy trying to hack an objective, not holding fire to KS, or not roof camping would be a positive improvement. If you truly want to incent participation you track WP/D and pay out in pubs like FW. That way you have to win or go home poorer, but the leaving issue is already bad and that would probably make it worse. In any event the real crux of this discussion is "why don't we stop tracking a stat that is detrimental to the game", and I have enjoyed hearing some of the other ideas on here.

BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 178	Posted - 2015.09.10 20:36:00 - [11] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Kills/Assists/Deaths Replace with ISK USED/ISK DESTROYED/ISK GAINED. This would solve a lot of player raging. ISK used: how much equipment you have purchased since the fight started. Basically how much money you have lost. ISK destroyed: how much ISK you have caused the enemy to use. ISK gained: how much ISK your making by destroying the enemy and either winning or losing fights. With this system you won't have nearly as much rage quitting as you have now because it doesn't matter how much you die or kill, it matters how much profit you make. Some roles destroy very little, so an ISK/WP ratio seems to be a really good metric. If you slay a lot and die little in reasonable suits you can easily look good. Same goes for guys that rep, hack, drop links. Do more and die less; then you get a great score. Go 20/4 in full proto get a negative score for losing ISK. Seems like it would reinforce positive game play and flavor. It even stops the 1/14 logi from seeming good as well. You have to balance costs with rewards.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 185	Posted - 2015.09.12 22:47:00 - [12] - Quote Mortishai Belmont wrote: I'm not going to bother reading all that and I'm just going to reply to your topic because it's silly. It's one of many stats that every merc has to keep track of their progress and game play. It's silly to care enough about to it try and artificially inflate the number, but you have to understand, if it was all about WP then you'd see nothing but logi's and who wants to go into a match with 16 logis trying to out rep the other 16 logis. Fact of the mater is, if your "that" kind of gamer, your going to try to pad what ever the current hot stat is to make yourself look good. It's as pointless as trying to get people to stop being so selfish. The status is supposed to be there so you can keep track of your personal progress to see if you have improved and get a better idea of how well you do in battle. Look at any competition and you will see people doing what ever they can to get a little above everyone else, why do you think steroids are popular in sports? The point is to change behavior. You can pad any stat, but to pad WPs you have to actually do something. That something usually contributes to more wins. It would reduce leaves, dissuade dying in expensive suits, and motivate players to actually do something or be parked at the bottom of the stat pile. If you want t go full proto slayer every game that's fine. The team needs guys that can do that. You just aren't going to generate leader board numbers by doing only one of the many activities it takes to win a match. As players compare thier stats then they will naturally want to improve, and to do so you have to actually generate WPs. You can't do that effectively redline sniping, roof camping, high ground camping, or flank camping. If this game is going to get new players to stay you have to incentivize them with a hope of mattering every game. A militia suit can generate a lot more WPs than kills. Telling guys to stick with it when most of us started in easy mode on here is laughable. Start an alt and see how long you like the NPE, and tell me what your K/D is after a few weeks. If that's the only stat to track that's how they will judge their performance, and all we are telling them is that they fail.