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Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy No Context
1
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Posted - 2015.09.08 19:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am not sure if many of you are aware of this but the FG's all used to have splash damage, this was latter removed due to an outcry of the community and in my opinion it was done unrightfully
now rat man has some ideas to add dispersion to them perhaps to make them more balanced when used against infantry, this is fair enough even tho I dont like it as it still takes a fair amount of skill to do this to begin with
secondly the FG already has mechanisms in place that prevent players from using them as primary anti infantry weapons now the AFG is a good example of what steps can be taken to further balance the FG's as when a FG is charging the reticle is constantly moving so that you cannot simply line up a shot so easily and it doesn't hold the charge meaning you have to know the point of origin and keep that in mind when using it something that isnt a problem on the FG and BFG because they stabilize and hold the charge allowing for the shot to be lined up without having to think much about it
now I would argue to bring back the splash for all the variants and make it so that they do not stabilize even when fully charged or keep it as it is and add the dispersion but with the splash damge
now I have many opinions of my own none that really matter much to me as I will adapt to whatever crazy new change is added
now the RR is a magnificent work of art and in its time it has seen its fair use even at one point being so powerful it was nerfed into the ground a major part of that nerf was the kick, now some people may not be aware of this but the RR has one of the highest reload times this alone is enough reason to use other weapons, but it also has another downfall which is the charge up mechanism your enemy can kill you before you even get the chance to react and it makes it a bit of a pain to burst the weapon at range which is the only real way to mange the kick, now the kick itself can be justified but along with so many other cons and only range to make up for it makes it more favorable for me to use and ScR on a cal assault then an RR and not to mention that the ScR has way more potential then the RR does even at range due to shorter cool downs larger clips and the ability to charge up to do massive damge even the AScR is capable of being a better ranged weapon and unless the kick is reduced so much that it is virtually gone there will be no reason for me to choose the RR as my primary on my cal assault
personally I would like to see bigger clip sizes less damge and higher fire rates or higher damage and lower fire rates with decreased charge up as the bonus rather then kick or reload and leave it as a ranged suppression weapon justifying high reload times by giving it a fairly large clip size
now what i am trying to do here is express my opinion on two matters that would personally affect me a lot especially because I am a Caldari specialist all the weapons I have at proto are mainly cal tech and I am skilled into all the Cal drop suits to at least level 3
I know that many players wish to make the Caldari into something that they are clearly not designed for so what I am asking is to give a reduction of .05 or perhaps .075 per level to the charge up of the RR as the bonus to a cal assault to make it easier to burst at range and so that other suits wont outperform the cal assault using the same weapon only sacrificing reload speeds which can be negated by simply using a commando
I don't want to see any of the cal tech be unreasonably alternated due to complaints from someone that doesn't even understand how the game works, so coming from me I say that a reduction to kick is welcome but not with the absence of better reloads unless you plan on making it almost non existent or at least manageable by making it vertical or giving it a specific pattern to follow that isn't so chaotic
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KGB Sleep
1
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Posted - 2015.09.09 09:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hitting someone with a Forge Gun is about the most satisfying feeling ever.
It's fun.
Don't take the fun out of the game.
Because beer, that's why.
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abdullah muzaffar
Random Gunz Rise Of Legion.
1
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Posted - 2015.09.09 11:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dispersion is already present. Noticeable when strafing.
My Trades
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ROMULUS H3X
research lab
707
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Posted - 2015.09.09 15:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
abdullah muzaffar wrote:Dispersion is already present. Noticeable when strafing.
Indeed, and you must crouch for a more precise shot.
Very few people still use the forge strictly for anti-infantry purposes.. Compared to what it used to be like at least..
I don't see how a dispersion increase would be warranted
FORGE/FLAYLOCK/FISTS
PLASMA/PISTOL/PUNCH
ALL OF YOU PUNKS GET HUMILIATED AFTER LUNCH!
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Megaman Trigger
OSG Planetary Operations
709
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Posted - 2015.09.09 16:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
ROMULUS H3X wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:Dispersion is already present. Noticeable when strafing. Indeed, and you must crouch for a more precise shot. Very few people still use the forge strictly for anti-infantry purposes.. Compared to what it used to be like at least.. I don't see how a dispersion increase would be warranted
Because inside of 300m, a FG is a better option than a Sniper and people don't like that?
Purifier. First Class.
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Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy No Context
1
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Posted - 2015.09.09 16:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:ROMULUS H3X wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:Dispersion is already present. Noticeable when strafing. Indeed, and you must crouch for a more precise shot. Very few people still use the forge strictly for anti-infantry purposes.. Compared to what it used to be like at least.. I don't see how a dispersion increase would be warranted Because inside of 300m, a FG is a better option than a Sniper and people don't like that?
have you ever even used a FG?
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Megaman Trigger
OSG Planetary Operations
709
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Posted - 2015.09.09 17:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sicerly Yaw wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:ROMULUS H3X wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:Dispersion is already present. Noticeable when strafing. Indeed, and you must crouch for a more precise shot. Very few people still use the forge strictly for anti-infantry purposes.. Compared to what it used to be like at least.. I don't see how a dispersion increase would be warranted Because inside of 300m, a FG is a better option than a Sniper and people don't like that? have you ever even used a FG?
Every day. As a Sentinel, I prefer it to using a HMG. A FG is better than a Sniper Rifle because it has better damage and much less sway, especially when moving, with no need to crouch.
Purifier. First Class.
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DDx77
Random Gunz Rise Of Legion.
355
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Posted - 2015.09.09 17:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
I find the charge up time very manageable on the Rail Rifle.
The only improvement I would request is to reduce the kick while in ADS.
Or adjust the LP specialist variant to have very low kick in ADS but with a reduced clip size to keep it from being OP.
The only problem with a FG and splash damage is unseating the Forge Gunner from a rooftop position.
The reason for the nerf was primarily how effective area denial is with it. Just imagine a Kubo's PLC with a (somewhat) easier way to aim |
Megaman Trigger
OSG Planetary Operations
709
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Posted - 2015.09.09 17:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
DDx77 wrote:
The only problem with a FG and splash damage is unseating the Forge Gunner from a rooftop position.
The reason for the nerf was primarily how effective area denial is with it. Just imagine a Kubo's PLC with a (somewhat) easier way to aim
Wasn't that also the reason the large Rails had their splash removed; to stop them being AI weapons and make them AV?
Purifier. First Class.
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CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
3
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Posted - 2015.09.09 18:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Touch the forge gun (In a bad way) DEVs and I will rally every last merc I can get my hands on to hunt for your heads!
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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Megaman Trigger
OSG Planetary Operations
709
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Posted - 2015.09.09 18:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Touch the forge gun (In a bad way) DEVs and I will rally every last merc I can get my hands on to hunt for your heads!
If anything, the vanilla and Breach need slight tweaks to buff them; minor charge and a damage buff to vanilla to give it a reason to be used over the AFG, remove immobilisation from BFG.
Purifier. First Class.
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TheEnd762
SVER True Blood RUST415
820
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Posted - 2015.09.10 03:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
I say leave splash damage as is, remove the shake while charging, slightly increase dispersion, but increase range a bit. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.10 07:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:ROMULUS H3X wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:Dispersion is already present. Noticeable when strafing. Indeed, and you must crouch for a more precise shot. Very few people still use the forge strictly for anti-infantry purposes.. Compared to what it used to be like at least.. I don't see how a dispersion increase would be warranted Because inside of 300m, a FG is a better option than a Sniper and people don't like that?
Slightly odd wording since the projectile despawns at 300m.
Framerate and it detection seem to be the biggest reason sniper rifles suck. That and the ability to chamge direction with no movement pause means lining a shot on a nerd wiggling in place is more luck than skill.
The framerate leads to some insane over-correction issues whenever I counter-snipe.
The forge gun has pretty much the same issues as a sniper weapon. Only difference is if it happens to hit you, you're dead.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy No Context
1
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Posted - 2015.09.10 11:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:ROMULUS H3X wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:Dispersion is already present. Noticeable when strafing. Indeed, and you must crouch for a more precise shot. Very few people still use the forge strictly for anti-infantry purposes.. Compared to what it used to be like at least.. I don't see how a dispersion increase would be warranted Because inside of 300m, a FG is a better option than a Sniper and people don't like that? Slightly odd wording since the projectile despawns at 300m. Framerate and it detection seem to be the biggest reason sniper rifles suck. That and the ability to chamge direction with no movement pause means lining a shot on a nerd wiggling in place is more luck than skill. The framerate leads to some insane over-correction issues whenever I counter-snipe. The forge gun has pretty much the same issues as a sniper weapon. Only difference is if it happens to hit you, you're dead.
call me crazy but I have both at proto and if I want to snipe I use a sniper rifle and if I want to kill infantry while denying vehicles I use an Assault FG, if all I am doing is destroying installations and vehicles I stick with the breach
and come on you cant say that the FG is a good sniper it has no zoom at all so unless you play on a 50" screen with a magnifying glass taped or glued to the center of your screen its gonna be hard to even find your target as they are usually only a few pixels big and mind you the FG is not an efficient sniper it has less overall ammo you cant resupply using hives so you have to constantly resupply and the glowing blue aura around you when charging or holding a charge gives your position away not to mention that FG rounds are fairly easy to dodge unlike sniper rounds which in most cases are too small to even see coming even with the trail
all I am saying is that the FG doesnt need any nerfs and neither do RR's perhaps a slight rework but nothing major
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.10 11:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
I have not heard of any nerfs in the works on anything more than a speculative level on the forums.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy No Context
1
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Posted - 2015.09.10 12:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I have not heard of any nerfs in the works on anything more than a speculative level on the forums.
I know what you mean but this happened to the splash damage of the FG too not many people complained about that either just some scrubs that cant even shoot if they don't stand still and I warned everyone about that too although I didn't go into it as much as I am now
what really got me thinking was seeing some of the ideas the rat man had notes on most of which I see causing more problems then fixing the ones that already exist
if anyone has actually used FG's extensively they can see that its not that easy and its not that hard to simply avoid them, most people that die to a FG stand completely still or even walk right in front of it or try to peek out when they know someone is holding a charge, I think that anyone claiming that its OP needs to learn how the game and specifically how the FG works in the first place, just like the bolt pistol how many have you seen lately complain about it? people only started complaining when certain people started a circle jerk making videos claiming it to be OP when the real issue is AA something that to my knowledge is not even a part of forge guns
forge gun kills on moving targets require a great amount of skill unlike some other weapons that are just point and shoot the FG requires you to aim with no help of AA if I am correct while leading your target because the projectile speed isn't as fast as people think it is and it requires you to time your shots and charge time if you use the AFG while I agree that the vanilla FG is a bit cheap to use as it can hold the charge making it easier to mange against infantry but mostly only at range
the best counter to a FG user I say is a laser rifle chances are they wont even get enough time to charge up before they die and you can move around so that they aren't likely to hit you, a sniper rifle user can easily get out of the range of a fg and kill it that way and a scout can easily kill a fg user that is careless as most don't even pay attention to their surroundings, however the most satisfying form of revenge is to simply use your own forge gun and kill them that way
I really see no issue with the FG it has plenty of counter play and more then enough drawback to consider any more without proper compensation
if anything this serves more as a warning to everyone so if anything does happen I can say I told you so, I know an update is around the corner so I am curious to see what changes will come and i will go ahead and predict the day being sep 25th
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Four Horseman Tactical Agency
2
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Posted - 2015.09.10 13:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Wish I could have given you 100 likes .
Teamwork is really important - said the Tyrannosarus Rex from Kung Fury .
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.10 13:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Try not to take rattatis trello notes as more than brainstorming notes until he says otherwise or posts it to a hotfix/patch trello. A lot of things on the boards he allows players to see are speculation, things to research and points of contention that might require another look.
This is my understanding of the publically viewable notes.
Honestly most of the contention comes from snipers or tank ddrivers. My process is generally to match it up to what I see and hear. If it jives I tentatively support it and move to test it. If it's plausible I move to test it. If it comes up BS I say so. If it doesn't come up BS I say so.
Right now there's a few people who think there are forge issues. Most people think it's ok or below par versus HAVs. A few claim it's OP vs tanks.
But most of the meat of this problem is the difference between a forge and sniper.
A forge has the slowest average ttk from trigger pull to kill. It's just instantaneous and immediately notable by the target.
"BANG, F**K I'M DEAD!"
One of the reason snipers are damn near useless (this is a realist assessment of many core failure points not an assessment of the character and contribution of snipers.) Is the fact that there is poor hit detection and framerate, coupled with the fact that it is entirely trivial to make it near impossible to line up a shot because direction changes are instant.
I've tried sniping. it sucks. Because of the aforementioned issues landing a shot on anything but a perfectly stationary target is hilariously unlikely.
The forge gun versus the idiot wiggling in place is a simple matter. You aim roughly where the wiggle bandit's trajectory is centered and let fly. Odds are his path and the projectile will intersect and you will be rewarded with a rag doll flying.
The sniper has to click a headshot to get the same thing. Much, much harder.
Precision weapons in DUST require an insane level of patience. Right now they aren't as much a threat as they simply weed out the gene pool of dumbasses and people who make mistakes.
I feel that difference in percieved utility is actually the sticking point about "forge sniping."
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.10 13:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Also sicerly you are absolutely correct: forge gun does NOT benefit from AA.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
3
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Posted - 2015.09.10 18:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Also sicerly you are absolutely correct: forge gun does NOT benefit from AA.
Remove Aim Assist all together *Rabble!!! Then maybe I can actually win gun fights against my enemies while using KB/M......
As it stands right now, if I dont use a plasma cannon, a forge gun or a mass driver..... I ain't worth a damn in battle. Maybe I should buy 100 different mouse types and see which one works best? lol.
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Four Horseman Tactical Agency
2
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Posted - 2015.09.10 18:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Maybe do something about mod controllers as well , even though most say that nothing can be done , I see that Destiny took care of that issue .
Teamwork is really important - said the Tyrannosarus Rex from Kung Fury .
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.09.10 18:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Maybe do something about mod controllers as well , even though most say that nothing can be done , I see that Destiny took care of that issue .
that's because Destiny fire rates are below the maximum believable threshold for the human finger pulling a trigger.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy No Context
1
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Posted - 2015.09.10 22:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Maybe do something about mod controllers as well , even though most say that nothing can be done , I see that Destiny took care of that issue . that's because Destiny fire rates are below the maximum believable threshold for the human finger pulling a trigger.
which is completely fair since bullet cycling doesn't happen the same on more powerful rifles then it does low power ones it makes sense that a more powerful rifle holds a cylinder back for longer then a low power one
its like those breathe strength testing machines the harder you blow the longer it takes for the ball to come back and settle but if you blow lightly you can keep constantly setting the ball at a fast rate if you understand my analogy or know how actual firearms work you may understand how this can be justified
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ROMULUS H3X
research lab
710
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Posted - 2015.09.11 15:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:ROMULUS H3X wrote:abdullah muzaffar wrote:Dispersion is already present. Noticeable when strafing. Indeed, and you must crouch for a more precise shot. Very few people still use the forge strictly for anti-infantry purposes.. Compared to what it used to be like at least.. I don't see how a dispersion increase would be warranted Because inside of 300m, a FG is a better option than a Sniper and people don't like that?
It's more like 200m-250m TOPS, infantry doesn't even render at that range for someone who is forging....
Not to mention, a sniper rifle can be put on ANY suit. A Forge can't.
You can snipe with a forge, sure... but you can bet the entire ENEMY TEAM will see your GIANT BLUE FLASHES OF LIGHT and will come and attempt to terminate you with EXTREME PREJUDICE.
Strap a sniper rifle on a scout, stay on the move and keep enemy guessing. Finding a sniper who KNOWS what he is doing is much harder than finding a Forger... Heck you just gotta look at the overhead map and watch him/her light up the map.
FORGE/FLAYLOCK/FISTS
PLASMA/PISTOL/PUNCH
ALL OF YOU PUNKS GET HUMILIATED AFTER LUNCH!
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Loyal Glasses
G.L.O.R.Y
91
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Posted - 2015.09.12 15:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
FRIENDS, MERCENARIES!! Pay attention to my words! A solution I may have, The removal of red sights on an enemy combatant was to be implemented?
Glasses of the Loyal Variety
>
"The dead are notoriously unproductive "
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Aeon Amadi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.13 13:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
One of the reason snipers are damn near useless (this is a realist assessment of many core failure points not an assessment of the character and contribution of snipers.) Is the fact that there is poor hit detection and framerate, coupled with the fact that it is entirely trivial to make it near impossible to line up a shot because direction changes are instant.
I've tried sniping. it sucks. Because of the aforementioned issues landing a shot on anything but a perfectly stationary target is hilariously unlikely.
The forge gun versus the idiot wiggling in place is a simple matter. You aim roughly where the wiggle bandit's trajectory is centered and let fly. Odds are his path and the projectile will intersect and you will be rewarded with a rag doll flying.
The sniper has to click a headshot to get the same thing. Much, much harder.
Precision weapons in DUST require an insane level of patience. Right now they aren't as much a threat as they simply weed out the gene pool of dumbasses and people who make mistakes.
I feel that difference in percieved utility is actually the sticking point about "forge sniping."
There are other factors, as well, that I feel need to be mentioned.
Power leveling in the Sniper Rifles is just silly. The damage difference from a Standard to a Prototype is 20 damage. From Prototype to Officer? 123. This coupled with the additional range and zoom capability of the Thale's means that the only one worth using at all is the Thale's.
You also have to be crouching/holding completely still in order to get proper functionality out of a Sniper Rifle. As Breakin mentions above, hit detection and framerate play big roles but so too does the fact that unless you subject yourself to vulnerability you'll be fighting the sway as well.
Map design is a huge factor, as many maps prior to Uprising 1.5 were bowl shaped, meaning most of your sniper perches are going to be set about the redline. After that, CCP took to making maps as flat as possible with little to no actual terrain gameplay to limit sniper play on or near objectives and also started occluding most objectives inside buildings or behind lots of terrain (this practically started the Scout/Sentinel uproar of 1.8, when they had their respective buffs and gameplay changes) because both of those specialities rule CQC. With no objective play from medium to long range, those playstyles can - and still do - usually go uncontested.
So, the TL;DR as to why the Forge Gun is a preferable Sniper Rifle:
- Guaranteed kill - Easier/more reliable Hit Detection - Multi-role capability (AV) - Damage scaling - Mobility - Map Design
Everyone hates snipers but out of all the FPS games I've played, Dust 514 has been the only one that I know of that seemingly designed it's entire gameplay scope to exclude them... then tried to balance them in that atmosphere.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
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Sicerly Yaw
Corrosive Synergy No Context
1
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Posted - 2015.09.13 19:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
There are other factors, as well, that I feel need to be mentioned.
Power leveling in the Sniper Rifles is just silly. The damage difference from a Standard to a Prototype is 20 damage. From Prototype to Officer? 123. This coupled with the additional range and zoom capability of the Thale's means that the only one worth using at all is the Thale's.
You also have to be crouching/holding completely still in order to get proper functionality out of a Sniper Rifle. As Breakin mentions above, hit detection and framerate play big roles but so too does the fact that unless you subject yourself to vulnerability you'll be fighting the sway as well.
Map design is a huge factor, as many maps prior to Uprising 1.5 were bowl shaped, meaning most of your sniper perches are going to be set about the redline. After that, CCP took to making maps as flat as possible with little to no actual terrain gameplay to limit sniper play on or near objectives and also started occluding most objectives inside buildings or behind lots of terrain (this practically started the Scout/Sentinel uproar of 1.8, when they had their respective buffs and gameplay changes) because both of those specialities rule CQC. With no objective play from medium to long range, those playstyles can - and still do - usually go uncontested.
So, the TL;DR as to why the Forge Gun is a preferable Sniper Rifle:
- Guaranteed kill - Easier/more reliable Hit Detection - Multi-role capability (AV) - Damage scaling - Mobility - Map Design
Everyone hates snipers but out of all the FPS games I've played, Dust 514 has been the only one that I know of that seemingly designed it's entire gameplay scope to exclude them... then tried to balance them in that atmosphere.
this does not mean that the FG is a better sniper in fact it just means the sniper rifle needs to be reworked or at least looked at and one of the things that I agree with rat man to is to make them work more like snipers do in TF2
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