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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.04 23:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:Please replace passive equipment that you just drop and leave (nanohives and uplinks) with items that need to be actively used.
Uplink beacons, allowing players to spawn on your own location to replace drop uplinks. Alternatively, require drop uplinks to be activated (similar to remote explosives) with a limited activation time and a cooldown period.
Resupply beams (similar to repair tool in use) to replace nanohives.
Oh, and get rid of the "circle to revive" for injectors, and require the injector to be your active module.
Effective support logistics should be hard.
I understand how you're calling that equipment "passive" but it is actually very "active". Hives need the supplied to physically occupy their bubble space and do the "resupply dance" in and out of it to work. Uplinks need to be deployed to become "active" and while, yes, once activated they "passively" permit spawning, it is an active decision on the part of the spawner to select the link and spawn on it, so not really an entirely "passive" system.
If I'm not mistaken there is also a small timer limit for spawns as well, which is why sometimes after the spawn countdown has ended theres a delay in deployment; people spawning delays others. This is also why you don't see 10 people simultaneously spawning all at once on a link, they spawn out one at a time. Quickly, but one at a time.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.05 18:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:They already changed deployable equipment to have bandwidth to limit how much stuff you can just "set and forget"
Then on top of that they decreased nanites and spawn counts while increasing the amount you can carry.
The effect? Passive equipment can and must be used actively. If you want to keep spawns up you have to keep dropping uplinks as you play instead of dropping 10 at the beginning of the match and switching to a sentinel to kill everything else.
Trust me, I was in full support of these changes and pushed heavily to make passive equipment more active.
Something I would like to see in the future is to have logistics suits get bonuses to their racial style of play (Caldari gets bonuses based on range, Minmatar gets bonuses based on speed, etc)...but that's a whole different topic.
Removing the placeable equipment is a bad idea because then players are forced to use direct support. What about Triage hives? Those are effectively an AoE heal, yet another playstyle that would be removed.
However there is nothing against adding more stuff into the game. A mobile CRU for infantry that has to be charged, a deployable scanner, a nanite tool that shot bursts of ammo and/or healing... sort of like a mass driver.
I personally would love a splash heal, or splash ammo resupply, but I wouldn't want it to replace what we currently have.
Nice, what he's saying^
Except the BW part, I still think BW is BooBoo. But, w/e.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.05 18:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:iKILLu osborne wrote:Having a beacon as you call it, would paint a target on your head brighter then the original quafe bpos .
Ensuring no one EVER ran amarr logi. Depends on how you set it up. It's not a terrible idea, especially if the amarr logistics rapid deploy was repurposed to this.
Nothing like killing a guy to be killed by his teammate who was spawning on him as he was being killed.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.06 23:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:iKILLu osborne wrote:Having a beacon as you call it, would paint a target on your head brighter then the original quafe bpos .
Ensuring no one EVER ran amarr logi. Depends on how you set it up. It's not a terrible idea, especially if the amarr logistics rapid deploy was repurposed to this. Nothing like killing a guy to be killed by his teammate who was spawning on him as he was being killed. Used to happen all the time in Space Marine; they had a perk called Teleport Homer that worked like a mobile Uplink, in that you teleported in on the equipped player's location so long as the player was alive. So you got the drop on someone, only to have two of their buddies deploy beside him and open fire. Was great for making runs on objectives and getting a capture team behind the enemy.
It happens all the time in Battlefield now, kill one guy to have two more scoobies spawn on him during the fight and kill you. Exact same trash mechanic just with less lag.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.06 23:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:So, to summarise the responses...
1 valid - but fixable - criticism (you can't resupply yourself)
2 mindless ad-hominem attacks (ignored)
1 "it makes it more difficult" (that's the point)
2 "its not as bad as it used to be" (beside the point)
1 complete misunderstanding of the idea (ignored)
1 "its too powerful" (only if implemented badly)
+ several unrelated ideas
I realise that recent these modules are less passive than they used to be, but that is simply an attempt to improve a mechanic that should be replaced.
Self-resupply can be implemented pretty easily, and done in such a way that the logi has to make a choice between self and remote benefits, and between different benefit types.
Area-of-effect heal is not a playstyle, its just an element of the game. If it is that important to people then create AoE versions of the repair tool, but keep it as an active module.
I get the point about forcing players to use direct support, but in my mind that is a positive, not a negative. Passive modules allow me, as a support logi, to be effectively doing many things at one; I've got my repper on one player, I'm reviving another, while resupplying several more and helping even more respawn.
Believe me, I see the benefits to this, but I don't think those benefits are good for the game. I'd much rather be made to choose one at a time, and then be allowed to do that one thing more effectively.
So then dedicate yourself to your "one thing at a time" playstyle and let the rest of us who have no problem multitasking, using predictive combat reasoning and/or worthwhile dynamic battlefield response alone.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.07 20:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Just because someone else has done something doesn't automatically mean you shouldn't.
A good mechanic is a good mechanic. A bad mechanic is a bad mechanic no matter how much you praise it's ingenuity.
The game has enough bizarrely complex code and quadruple-redundancy and not enough baseline core function.
This is all true except the baseline core function part. There's plenty of function especially with this segment of the game (equipment and its use/operation). Theres even plenty of core base function in spawning, the subtopic in here. So much core function, balanced and tested, that to change it past slight adjustments as dictated by overall interplay would be ridiculously counterproductive to the game as a whole.
This is supposed to be a Tactical Shooter, not a Gallery Twitch Shooter. Tactical gameplay means the environment is geared towards organization, thought and teamwork. Yes, you can Run n Gun it but the environment itself mechanically is not built for Run n Gun, its not built to simply set pins up so people knock them down. And that difference happens first and foremost with spawning. Theres plenty enough ways to spawn, all of which require the individual spawning to consider carefully where and when to do it-the Tactical approach. Players have to engage conflicts carefully, mindful of where reinforcement must come from and how long it will take. NOT just Run n Get Killed n Have a Teammate Spawn n Kill the Guy Who Just Killed You n Spawn That Teammate n Run Some More. Productive Slayers in here don't just TwitchFire, they anticipate combatant behaviour OR maximize opportunities that behaviour creates. Just like Productive Logis don't just slap a beam on someone and follow them, they constantly establish, use, maintain and if need be relocate the support infrastructure their team is relying on to be able to Tactically approach the challenges the DUST battlefield creates and surpass them.
tl;dr Chess, not checkers.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.07 20:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Productive Logis don't just slap a beam on someone and follow them, they constantly establish, use, maintain and if need be relocate the support infrastructure their team is relying on to be able to Tactically approach the challenges the DUST battlefield creates and surpass them. This is exactly the kind of thing I want to see. Maybe that's what we have in top tier battles with nanohives and drop uplinks, but it certainly isn't what I see happening. I mainly see maps spammed with uplinks and hives in a few key areas at the start of the battle, and nothing elsewhere. And once those are gone, basically nothing at all, unless I've dropped it myself.
Which is why there's different modes with maybe not different "tiers" specifically but largely different mentalities on the part of the players in those modes. And this spread of mentalities is a product of and testament to the "Open Sandbox" aspect of the game's design basis. Point is, the tools are there. By your own statement of what you'd like to see, the tools are already there. Whether or not , when and where people choose to use them is a different topic entirely. That initial layout you see? Thats people who know how games can be directed at the beginning, that layout is their attempt at establishing that direction. Whether they do or don't maintain it is up to them, and obviously you. Now, if you don't want to spend the game working as a logi then don't. And if they don't either they won't. And you'll have the match you have. Or vice versa, and then you'll have the match you have then.
Logistics is work . Different from pewpew work, but still work. End of the day sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it isn't. Case in point-I omnilogi and have for almost a year, all 4 frames fully protoed, all upgrades complete. My number one suit for pubs? A dragonfly. Some matches, yeah I'll hit the field and floss some logi frames but the majority of them no, no way. Theres too much idiocy happening around me. But, its pubs so idrgaf. Even in FW same thing. I'm not going to hide in the redline and if I see a clearly beneficial opportunity to shift a battle logistically I'll use it but more often than not I'm just going to keep my match nice and simple, do my work for a win and move on.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.10 20:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:el OPERATOR wrote: Which is why there's different modes with maybe not different "tiers" specifically but largely different mentalities on the part of the players in those modes. And this spread of mentalities is a product of and testament to the "Open Sandbox" aspect of the game's design basis. Point is, the tools are there. By your own statement of what you'd like to see, the tools are already there. Whether or not , when and where people choose to use them is a different topic entirely. That initial layout you see? Thats people who know how games can be directed at the beginning, that layout is their attempt at establishing that direction. Whether they do or don't maintain it is up to them, and obviously you. Now, if you don't want to spend the game working as a logi then don't. And if they don't either they won't. And you'll have the match you have. Or vice versa, and then you'll have the match you have then.
Logistics is work . Different from pewpew work, but still work. End of the day sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it isn't. Case in point-I omnilogi and have for almost a year, all 4 frames fully protoed, all upgrades complete. My number one suit for pubs? A dragonfly. Some matches, yeah I'll hit the field and floss some logi frames but the majority of them no, no way. Theres too much idiocy happening around me. But, its pubs so idrgaf. Even in FW same thing. I'm not going to hide in the redline and if I see a clearly beneficial opportunity to shift a battle logistically I'll use it but more often than not I'm just going to keep my match nice and simple, do my work for a win and move on. I get what you are saying, and I don't want to needlessly nerf anyone's play-style. I just don't think "lazy logi" is a play-style we want to encourage, and passive modules (event after the rebalancing) do encourage it: drop your hives and uplinks and slap your reptool on a heavy, then wait for the WP to roll in. Anyone who is an active logi, and is properly managing their hives and uplinks to support their team, I applaud you. I don't see many of you on the battlefield though, and I frequently find I'm the only person dropping uplinks after the first couple of minutes of a battle. And this is before we include the ability of almost every other suit / play-style to drop passive equipment as well. Also, I don't play PC, and so I don't know the passive equipment dynamics are different there; if they are, could someone explain how?
Appypollyloggy on taking so long to respond, meant to do so sooner. I agree about "lazy logis" and wholeheartedly agree theres an abundance of them. Thing about that is Logi frames take no prior investment SP to skill so, for noobs, when the "word around town" is "Be a Logi, make WP" new players skill it so as to fasttrack their ability to generate SP for w/e else they actually want to use. Creating and reinforcing the notion logistics is ez and a WPfarm. End of the day tho the results speak for themselves-players like you look at it and say, wtf is that?
Thing is, its not the mechanics of the role thats the issue, its that player mentality. The mentality of "I want" versus "I create". Cheap/noob players will always go for whatever is easiest.
PC can definitely be a step up from this, however don't take it for granted that just because its PC it'll automatically be different. Its a mentality thing-and mentality isn't location specific. The odds are better of you seeing/doing logi like that there (IME) but still not guaranteed.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.10 21:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bear in mind I'm the guy who when the CPM survey went out on improving logis one of my first points was to make the frames a Dropsuit Command level 5 unlock, to limit the riffraff. I'm a **** like that.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.10 23:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Bear in mind I'm the guy who when the CPM survey went out on improving logis one of my first points was to make the frames a Dropsuit Command level 5 unlock, to limit the riffraff. I'm a **** like that. I'm not sure I'd support that, tbh. If someone wants to do proper, active logistics support in a basic suit on their first day in the game, I say "let them". I love the slot rebalancing for that very reason; I don't have to run proto to get 4 equipment slots any more. Just don't give WP out for no effort. Also, while I'm at it, I'd love to see "broadcast for ammo", "broadcast for reps" and "broadcast for drop beacon" implemented as well. "Broadcast for revive" was a godsend when it was introduced.
Yeah, it was part on an idea "suite" for the class, some aspects made it, some didn't. A lot of people felt as you do, that it would counter-npe. Which is undeniable but was part of the point: get logi frames base-specced to be competitive and limit misuse by NOT allowing access except to those who've done more than just create a character. There's no way a day-one char is doing anything even remotely close to worthwhile logistics.
I still don't see the WP for no effort thing really, but that's fine. We're from different perspectives so naturally our experiences differ.
"Communication Codecs" in here would be huge, its crazy they don't already exist in some form since the game is intended to be a team-play experience largely, but considering the initial monetization avenue was to charge people for the ability to talk to one another its an easy assumption that CCP just figures people will use voice comms for all that.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.09.16 21:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:There's no way a day-one char is doing anything even remotely close to worthwhile logistics. Why not? Why can't a day-one logi provide worthwhile support to a bunch of day-one slayers? I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this.
The passive investments aren't there. Liability>Benefits
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2015.09.16 22:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Core skills.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2015.09.16 22:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
I should also add experential role knowledge, but thats less about applying points into the tree and more about applying time into the game.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2015.09.18 17:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Core skills. Ah, OK. But that's only true if the game requires it. A useable logistics starter suit would be all that is needed to solve that. Absolutely the game requires it, performance each match requires it.
Providing a frame, any frame, that compensates for a lack of investment in any role is the worst idea possible. You're decrying people's failure in performance (providing and maintaining support) but then suggesting that right from them the get-go they NOT be made to learn but instead be given , artificially, a suit that provides performance benefits that character isn't entitled too? Should a "slayer" starter suit be preloaded with weaponry specced at Prof5? Or plated/extended at Complex levels?
Core skills are the the actual RPG progressive elements in this game, your individual merc develops those and reaps the benefits with all frames and fits. They're the basis of difference between experienced, seasoned mercs and new ones. Suggesting that starter frames compensate for a lack of core skills is crazy and akin to bootcamp trainees being handed top-end weaponry and equipment day one. It would instill a false sense of capability as well as not provided a learning environment that produces the sort of problem-solving skills sorely needed by logistics players at all levels in all match modes and maps. el OPERATOR wrote:I should also add experential role knowledge, but thats less about applying points into the tree and more about applying time into the game. Isn't that true of all playstyles though? I appreciate that slayers with experience in other FPS can transfer that experience more readily, but learning the ins and outs of Dust, its equipment, maps, etc. takes time no matter what role you play. Remember, I'm not saying a day 1 logi should be able to effectively support an experienced squad in FW or PC. Just that a day 1 logi should be able to support a bunch of day 1 slayers against another bunch of day 1 slayers, and they can all grow from there. However, we don't want day 1 lazy logi; to be that day-1 effective logi, you should have to work hard, from day 1.
Yes it's true of all roles but due to the labor demand of logistics this is most true there. And yes logistics knowledge can be "imported" experience from other game experience however the unique environment and parameters in DUST still very much require game-specific knowledge and method refinement.
A day 1 "logi" has everything he needs to provide worthwhile support to day 1 slayers from a day 1 starter assault frame. 1 equipment slot to provide eq support with, a rifle and some hp. Its day 1, training-mode on, there'll be time soon enough to swim with the sharks. But first, learn to swim, learn to float and learn to dive.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2015.09.18 22:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cool.
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