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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
992
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Posted - 2015.09.03 20:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'll just give some observations and logical thought here and you can pick it apart at will:
Observation 1. Infantry without AV is helpless vs. vehicles. 100% helpless, you basically have zero chance of anything aside from hiding until they go away.
Observation 2. A single infantry with AV is unable to kill a dropship unless the dropship pilot makes a mistake, and cannot even drive the dropship away in some cases in the amount of time it takes the dropship to kill the AV player (in other words, even with AV, dropship vs. infantry is asymmetrical in favor of the dropship).
Observation 3. Multiple infantry with AV makes dropship piloting impossible.
Logicology of the situation:
Why is an infantry player running AV not able to kill vehicles unless the pilot makes a mistake when the AV player is making himself food for any non-AV infantry by running that AV?
The reason is because vehicles cost so much, if you made them easy to kill they would be not useless, but definately too expensive to run.
So why do vehicles cost so much?
How about we dramatically rebalance things so that 1. vehicles are killable and 2. they are priced to reflect that.
Final comments:
Dropship v. AV is pretty closely balanced in 1v1 right now, but even so its broken because the AV running a fit specifically created to destroy vehicles cannot do his job without the vehicle making a mistake, and if multiple AV are out on the field the vehicle cant do anything at all.
How about we make vehicles expendable?
How do we do this? Well we could try this...
Make the pilot suit.
Tie pilot suit fittings in with how well the vehicle does
Dramatically reduce vehicle prices and make it so AV has advantage in 1v1 combat with a vehicle.
The majority of a vehicle's "cost" will be in the pilot suit (still not as expensive as current vehicles though), so the vehicle pilot essentially can defray costs indefinately unless his vehicle gets blown up so quickly and decisively that he loses his suit as well.
Making vehicles more disposable also helps to mitigate the multiple AV phenomena, where many AV players can make running vehicles prohibitively expensive.
tldr; Vehicle balance in this game is fundamentally broken. Small tweaks arent going to fix it. Breaking the EXPENSIVE = INVINCIBLE dynamic of vehicles may fix the issues, but this probably wont happen, so whatever. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
992
|
Posted - 2015.09.03 21:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
-Does your dropsuit have to be called in by an RDV, and is it vulnerable during deployment and recalling.
Dropsuits have to spawn in at designated spots, where they are very vulnerable to being murdered. So yes they are vulnerable during deployment.
-Can you just switch out fits for your vehicle at a supply depot?
No, but you can switch out your vehicle anywhere on the map, unlike infantry who is SOL if there are no supply depots on the map or some guy has killed all of them but one 8 miles away in the redline.
-Does your dropsuit have to worry about getting hit by buildings or null cannon missiles or MCC missiles
Incredibly marginal concern
-or other vehicles?
Please show me the infantry player who isnt concerned about being hit by vehicles.
-If it's 1v1, why then can AV ALWAYS outnumber vehicles thanks to vehicle caps? Can a vehicle cap a point?
Its been pointed out many times before that, with current balance, vehicles being the huge force multiplier they currently are makes it impossible to both field effective AV and field infantry to combat remaining infantry on the vehicle's team. And no vehicles cant cap points, but infantry arent able to make open areas impassable no go zones just by being in the area.
-So you want just a single person to outclass another who takes significantly more time just to get onto the field, who can't even engage in about 50% of the map (technically more if you consider the important points are often physically protected from vehicles)
The "more time to get onto the field" is a narrative that isnt going to fly with me, since its abundantly obvious that even counting RDV time, a vehicle can deploy from the redline and get to the point far faster than all but the quickest infantry. And just because you feel uncomfortable calling vehicles in outside the redline doesnt mean you CANT. And I like how you seem to think a vehicle player being outclassed by another player is something bad, since thats exactly what vehicles do to everyone on the field in the current meta, including AV players.
As far as access to areas goes, sure. You cant access every area (though 50% is a gross exaggeration, even on the most restricted maps its more like single digit percentages, unless we're talking about domination on the ******** rafters & highway map). And you cant cap a point (except you can by getting out to hack, and it would be even more feasible if my changes were put in place that made the vehicle portion of your fitting more expendable).
-Your idea makes vehicles worthless because if even one idiot runs to a supply depot, you're down and out if you're in a vehicle. Nevermind if there's more than one, which there ALWAYS is since everyone has AV these days. Vehicles are the best counter to vehicles if you want to be a solo player. Otherwise, you have to either catch them in a trap or work loosely with one other player.
And then you follow things up by complaining about potentially being killed, even though you could still abuse map features and teamate positioning to be very hard to kill, and wrap it up with a tacit admission that vehicles can only be realistically and efficiently countered by other vehicles, basically admitting they are overpowered as is. Okay.
This is the attitude that makes vehicle/AV balance impossible. In fact you probably think AV is overpowered, even though it is literally impossible to kill a madruger rep/hardener fit currently with a swarm launcher, and it takes like 3 full clips to kill a gunlogi.
But its ok, you will win in the end because vehicle/AV balance will never be fixed because nobody thinks its a problem that tanks are virtually impossible to kill. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
996
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 16:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:-Words- As far as the ADS is concerned, 1 AV player is more than enough to handle an ADS. Unless the ADS starts attacking first (which is nearly impossible on an observant AVer considering the range the can see and engage an ADS), the swarmer has the advantage heavily. The reason AV cannot kill easily ADSs is because they can fly away from danger before dying, not because of lack of killing potential. This is an ADSs only defense against swarms at the moment. All our fittings do is to delay exploding long enough to get away, or in a best case scenario kill the AVer. Unlike forges, there is virtually no player skill that is involved in the engagement; all there is is luck, hoping you see and can hit him before he gets his salvo off. Your second observation is off because it's assuming they're just immediately shooting at each other. It takes not account of the ability for AV to hide and get the first shot off. Sure, if an ADS knows exactly where a swarmer is and gets in its optimal and starts firing immediately from a standstill, it will have the upper hand, but that rarely happened in battle. AV has a huge advantage of being hard to find, hard to hit, and having a comparatively easy target. Making vehicles cheap but easy to kill (ie cannon fodder) is the wrong way to go, imo. As mentioned above, the fight already skews heavily toward AV. Vehicles also take much more time to deploy than infantry, making them not only assets of ISK but time in battle. Just my opinion, but I also think making AV vs vehicles quicker/easier very one-dimensional and boring for everyone. As per my previous post (that no one has seemed to have read), I want to make the engagement more engaging for both parties. Also, AVers should not think "if I don't kill the vehicle I have failed." Driving off and denying areas to vehicles should be the main goal of AV, killing them being the optimal outcome because it takes the most time to bring that asset back (or benches it completely). Occupying the time of the ADS, either by making him flee, try to kill you, or killing him, means less time he is killing your team, essentially making him less useful.
AV vs. vehicles is already boring for everyone.
I've had PCs before where a dropship pilot will hover in front of my forge fit and eat 2 full clips of AFG ammo to his face, the only reason I survived was because I was hitting him in such a way to throw his aim off. Am I supposed to take an experience like that and accept your claim that AV should just be happy driving vehicles away? I cant drive vehicles away. If they are fit properly and driven properly they can hover right in my face for 20+ seconds. This python is hovering right in my face with complete impunity while Im nailing it with every shot from a fitting specifically created to destroy vehicles, and it isnt even coming close to dying. Balanced!
Swarms are similarly useless, though at least they hit more often if the dropship is making crazy maneuvers. But again I cant kill them, they just sit there until hardeners are about to drop and leave. So essentially AV does nothing except keeps a dropship away while its hardeners are down, at which point AV might as well not even be there compared to putting an assault dropship in the air with a railgun to fight these dropships on their own terms.
I do agree generally though that AV gets first shot advantage more often than not, though this more than compensated I think by the AV player having to spend most of its time scrambling away from or fighting enemy infantry. If the AV player is sitting in a tower or something, then that risk is mitigated, but then deployment of that AV player now requires the same time investment that calling in another ADS requires, plus their position is much more static and vulnerable to enemy ADS pilots, so either way the AV player is going to have serious problems.
My point is not that AV v. V balance is fine right now, or should be tweaked in favor of the AV. My point is that the current mechanics are inherently unbalancable. You have a weapon that hits regardless of maneuvers unless that maneuver is run away immediately. You have a "window of opportunity" design philosophy that makes vehicles so strong during the window that they are virtually unkillable, and a disparity in mobility that allows exploitation of that window for entire games. Meanwhile if you mass enough AV you can murder any vehicle even despite the window of opportunities, but at the same time it cripples your team by drawing too much away from anti-infantry/point holding. AV v. V is broken at a fundamental level and needs a redesign from the ground up, with less emphasis on windows of opportunity and removal of the swarm launcher fire & forget mechanics. |
Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
996
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 18:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Murder Medic wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
I've had PCs before where a dropship pilot will hover in front of my forge fit and eat 2 full clips of AFG ammo to his face, the only reason I survived was because I was hitting him in such a way to throw his aim off. .
I'm calling bull **** on that one, even if he was a dual hardened Incubus you still would have worn him down in that time, especially if you shot the weak spot. Sounds like you're just making stuff up now.
Sorry I dont have video capture card or I'd have stuff like this recorded, but it happened. He was hovering right in front of me next to a supply depot on the acid pits city installation. It was in a previous patch, not the current one, but I havent seen much to convince me that ADS's are much easier to kill these days.
You also say stuff like this "Bad players do have trouble killing tanks while they're on both of their hardeners, I'll give you that." even though it is literally impossible for wyrikomi swarms to kill a double rep/double hardener tank (have tested this in controlled conditions, tank not moving at all, reps out rep the dps until hardeners go down). But this thread isnt about tanks, so whatever.
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
996
|
Posted - 2015.09.04 18:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:Murder Medic wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:
I've had PCs before where a dropship pilot will hover in front of my forge fit and eat 2 full clips of AFG ammo to his face, the only reason I survived was because I was hitting him in such a way to throw his aim off. .
I'm calling bull **** on that one, even if he was a dual hardened Incubus you still would have worn him down in that time, especially if you shot the weak spot. Sounds like you're just making stuff up now. I've seen a Python use hardeners to reduce Swarm damage so much that the shield repped through Swarm impacts. Think it was triple hardened, according to someone on comms.
Yep, probably the same thing I was running into. Meanwhile unhardened fits are absolutely terrible, and militia vehicles are complete **** these days and cant stand up to non militia unless the non-militia pilot is pants on head ********. This isnt balance, its just one single overpowered module carrying vehicles to invincibility because of the window of opportunity design philosophy that sucks for everyone involved. |
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