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Tebu Gan
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 15:50:00 -
[61] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I disagree. Anti vehicle weapons are anti-vehicle weapons. I feel that heavy weapons need to be dual purpose rather than ungodly and unreasonably more powerful.
The same applies to turrets. Making heavy turrets gimped against infantry by more methods than rotation speeds can create some issues.
Infantry should always be a threat unless they take no special effort to be so. By the same token, HAVs should always be a threat to infantry.
Problem with most dialogs is people willing to meet in the middle usually get drowned in a sea of bullsh*t when it comes to AV/v. Honestly I wish balance hadn't swung so hard that the community feels that one must have proto AV to avoid getting schooled without hope of reprieve by HAV and ADS.
Say we take a blaster, reduce it's damage and reduce it's dispersion. Conversely, we take a blaster, increase damage but increase dispersion as well.
One would be more equipped at taking infantry, the other more equipped for tanks and other vehicles. I could see an obvious problem with the AV blaster being a threat to infantry, yet we had some pretty large dispersion in the past and it severly reduced a blasters AI functionality to a point of nearly being useless.
If you could, elaborate on some of these issues that would crop up when you go beyond rotation speed. When I bring my rail tank to the field, dealing with infantry is a secondary thought and not one it does very well at unless what I'm fighting stands still or moves in a straight line. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.20 16:38:00 -
[62] - Quote
I don't think that there are any easy fixes. Honestly we'd need to know more of rattati's intent for vehicles ultimately.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Tebu Gan
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 17:15:00 -
[63] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I don't think that there are any easy fixes. Honestly we'd need to know more of rattati's intent for vehicles ultimately.
Agreed. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.20 17:15:00 -
[64] - Quote
actually now that I think about it, the determination whether a turret is AV/AI could be determined by the theoretical new tank chassis, the UHAVs and DHAVs
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Tebu Gan
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 17:22:00 -
[65] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:actually now that I think about it, the determination whether a turret is AV/AI could be determined by the theoretical new tank chassis, the UHAVs and DHAVs
Through role bonuses eh. I was thinking doing a bonus to a specific turret class like scouts and cloaks. Though you could do the same with the class of HAV, augmenting the turrets functionality. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.20 19:10:00 -
[66] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:actually now that I think about it, the determination whether a turret is AV/AI could be determined by the theoretical new tank chassis, the UHAVs and DHAVs
Through role bonuses eh. I was thinking doing a bonus to a specific turret class like scouts and cloaks. Though you could do the same with the class of HAV, augmenting the turrets functionality.
Honestly that might be the least idiotic way of going about it.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Tebu Gan
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 19:18:00 -
[67] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:actually now that I think about it, the determination whether a turret is AV/AI could be determined by the theoretical new tank chassis, the UHAVs and DHAVs
Through role bonuses eh. I was thinking doing a bonus to a specific turret class like scouts and cloaks. Though you could do the same with the class of HAV, augmenting the turrets functionality. Honestly that might be the least idiotic way of going about it.
Sounds good to me. Seems to work best as evident with logis, scouts, assaults, ect. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.20 19:43:00 -
[68] - Quote
so if we propose to rattati to mid-line the Heavy guns, then bonus them by hull type we should be good.
For instance, a DHAV would be the zero-splash, high dispersion, intended to murder tanks not footscrubs, but the UHAV would be the low DPS, splash weapon having death mobile that AV has a hard time dropping
with MBTs in the middle providing a baseline.
I actually wrote the proposal with the intent that the main battle tanks act as the baseline.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Tebu Gan
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.08.20 20:20:00 -
[69] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:so if we propose to rattati to mid-line the Heavy guns, then bonus them by hull type we should be good.
For instance, a DHAV would be the zero-splash, high dispersion, intended to murder tanks not footscrubs, but the UHAV would be the low DPS, splash weapon having death mobile that AV has a hard time dropping
with MBTs in the middle providing a baseline.
I actually wrote the proposal with the intent that the main battle tanks act as the baseline.
Oo, I didn't even consider giving forge heavies a bonus to a certain hull type. That's a good idea.
Glad we could come to an understanding. I would be most interested in what the big man up top intends. While I can't say I don't like being OP (not that I drive a tank too often anyhow nowadays), I do not enjoy the imbalances and neither does anyone else. And this is one that has been ongoing since the start of this game with no huge improvements to the problem.
Nice work in any case, been a while since there was anything worth commenting on. |
DUST Fiend
17
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Posted - 2015.08.20 21:45:00 -
[70] - Quote
If you want one AV player to reliably handle one vehicle player, then why does the vehicle player have to pay significantly more ISK, SP, vulnerability of deployment and recalling, time required to deploy and recall, as well as a general lack of effectiveness at doing anything but killing out in the open.
Things like this are precisely why I don't vote for CPM.
Also, suggesting new assets in a game that can barely afford the staff to remove the assets causing the game to run at a crawl is probably not the most sensible approach, particularly for a newly elected "representative".
I am a beautiful space manatee, flying through the sky with the greatest of ease
Swarms everywhere.
WoD 514
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.20 22:23:00 -
[71] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:so if we propose to rattati to mid-line the Heavy guns, then bonus them by hull type we should be good.
For instance, a DHAV would be the zero-splash, high dispersion, intended to murder tanks not footscrubs, but the UHAV would be the low DPS, splash weapon having death mobile that AV has a hard time dropping
with MBTs in the middle providing a baseline.
I actually wrote the proposal with the intent that the main battle tanks act as the baseline. Oo, I didn't even consider giving forge heavies a bonus to a certain hull type. That's a good idea. Glad we could come to an understanding. I would be most interested in what the big man up top intends. While I can't say I don't like being OP (not that I drive a tank too often anyhow nowadays), I do not enjoy the imbalances and neither does anyone else. And this is one that has been ongoing since the start of this game with no huge improvements to the problem. Nice work in any case, been a while since there was anything worth commenting on.
I was talking about the heavy turrets, honestly
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.20 22:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:If you want one AV player to reliably handle one vehicle player, then why does the vehicle player have to pay significantly more ISK, SP, vulnerability of deployment and recalling, time required to deploy and recall, as well as a general lack of effectiveness at doing anything but killing out in the open.
Things like this are precisely why I don't vote for CPM.
Also, suggesting new assets in a game that can barely afford the staff to remove the assets causing the game to run at a crawl is probably not the most sensible approach, particularly for a newly elected "representative".
You're falling into my caveat for spkr4thedead:
Learn to read.
We've been addressing those questions for about four pages now.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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DUST Fiend
17
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Posted - 2015.08.20 22:32:00 -
[73] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:If you want one AV player to reliably handle one vehicle player, then why does the vehicle player have to pay significantly more ISK, SP, vulnerability of deployment and recalling, time required to deploy and recall, as well as a general lack of effectiveness at doing anything but killing out in the open.
Things like this are precisely why I don't vote for CPM.
Also, suggesting new assets in a game that can barely afford the staff to remove the assets causing the game to run at a crawl is probably not the most sensible approach, particularly for a newly elected "representative". You're falling into my caveat for spkr4thedead: Learn to read. We've been addressing those questions for about four pages now.
I wasted enough time reading through your document, I'm not here to debate things that will never happen.
You're falling into my caveat for Sorya, so the feeling is apparently mutual.
I am a beautiful space manatee, flying through the sky with the greatest of ease
Swarms everywhere.
WoD 514
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.20 22:58:00 -
[74] - Quote
As if I cared what you thought of me.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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2 NOITCEFREP YLOH
Company of Marcher Lords
Amarr Empire
21
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Posted - 2015.08.21 01:04:00 -
[75] - Quote
Well you got the AV part... oh wait you included tanks ( only nerfed more ******* ) get gud
I am LOGI KING
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.21 07:41:00 -
[76] - Quote
I'm still better than you.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
3
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Posted - 2015.08.22 10:51:00 -
[77] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:You want to nerf the held charge for the standard forge guns....  I haven't bought hundreds of Gastuns forges for nothing bro! Do you REALLY need to hold a charge on a gastun for eight seconds? I never do.
Honestly, not terribly often but there are times where I am set up preparing a trap for tanks or infantry. I usually have the charge held for infantry to be honest.
I know you understand the intricacies of forgeing so I trust your judgement even if I dont fully agree.
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.22 11:45:00 -
[78] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:You want to nerf the held charge for the standard forge guns.... I haven't bought hundreds of Gastuns forges for nothing bro! Do you REALLY need to hold a charge on a gastun for eight seconds? I never do. Honestly, not terribly often but there are times where I am set up preparing a trap for tanks or infantry. I usually have the charge held for infantry to be honest. I know you understand the intricacies of forgeing so I trust your judgement even if I dont fully agree.
Unfortunately if we want to get a bit more juice out of the guns, then we absolutely have to be prepared to compromise. Giving up a little sniper utility in exchange for more alpha and less charge time to put the vanilla forge between the assault and breach is a compromise I am more than happy to make.
The proppsal may be based wholly on a balanced conceptual framework, HOWEVER, It would still involve nerfing and buffing things simultaneously, something I normally loathe.
There's also that "on paper" and "in practice" don't always mesh well. So I'm trying to make everything as linear, adjustable and prepared fully to compromise to bring things to actual parity.
The reduction in sniper utility serves two functions:
1: limiting lazy tower sniper behavior and forcing forge gunners into a less passive role on the battlefield.
2: restoring sniper rifles to the premier long range precision weapon. The forge gun does not need to be better at AV as well as being better than sniper rifles at sniping.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.22 12:44:00 -
[79] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:You want to nerf the held charge for the standard forge guns.... I haven't bought hundreds of Gastuns forges for nothing bro! Do you REALLY need to hold a charge on a gastun for eight seconds? I never do. Honestly, not terribly often but there are times where I am set up preparing a trap for tanks or infantry. I usually have the charge held for infantry to be honest. I know you understand the intricacies of forgeing so I trust your judgement even if I dont fully agree. Unfortunately if we want to get a bit more juice out of the guns, then we absolutely have to be prepared to compromise. Giving up a little sniper utility in exchange for more alpha and less charge time to put the vanilla forge between the assault and breach is a compromise I am more than happy to make. The proppsal may be based wholly on a balanced conceptual framework, HOWEVER, It would still involve nerfing and buffing things simultaneously, something I normally loathe. There's also that "on paper" and "in practice" don't always mesh well. So I'm trying to make everything as linear, adjustable and prepared fully to compromise to bring things to actual parity. The reduction in sniper utility serves two functions: 1: limiting lazy tower sniper behavior and forcing forge gunners into a less passive role on the battlefield. 2: restoring sniper rifles to the premier long range precision weapon. The forge gun does not need to be better at AV as well as being better than sniper rifles at sniping.
What is being defined as sniper utility, so that I can better understand what is being presented?
Thanks for all the support guys, let's fix Dust 514
:D
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.22 14:20:00 -
[80] - Quote
Forge gun hold-charge.
The proposal suggests a 5 second cut-off to held charge.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Tebu Gan
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.08.22 15:27:00 -
[81] - Quote
Just spit balling an idea here. What if forge guns (or a variant) did damage based on the amount of charge. Meaning it could be fired early for much less damage. Might be something good for infantry sniping. |
Megaman Trigger
OSG Planetary Operations
472
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 16:00:00 -
[82] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Just spit balling an idea here. What if forge guns (or a variant) did damage based on the amount of charge. Meaning it could be fired early for much less damage. Might be something good for infantry sniping.
Like the Charge Sniper; half charge for lower damage, and maybe shorter range, or full charge for full damage.
Purifier. First Class.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.22 16:24:00 -
[83] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Just spit balling an idea here. What if forge guns (or a variant) did damage based on the amount of charge. Meaning it could be fired early for much less damage. Might be something good for infantry sniping. Like the Charge Sniper; half charge for lower damage, and maybe shorter range, or full charge for full damage.
with four shots total in the magazine?
Waste of ammo and effort
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.22 16:37:00 -
[84] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Forge gun hold-charge.
The proposal suggests a 5 second cut-off to held charge.
Eh, sure. I forge snipe with an Assault Forge Gun anyway so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.
Thanks for all the support guys, let's fix Dust 514
:D
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
13
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Posted - 2015.08.22 16:55:00 -
[85] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
Eh, sure. I forge snipe with an Assault Forge Gun anyway so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.
And what are balance decisions if not a means by which to tailor the game to better fit my playstyle?
Will the proposed change affect me negatively? Opposed.
Will the proposed change affect me positively? In Favor.
Will the proposed change not affect me in the slightest? Eh, sure.
:: A moment inside Aeon's mind ::
CPM Sgt Kirk - On Community
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Tebu Gan
0uter.Heaven
1
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Posted - 2015.08.22 17:01:00 -
[86] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Just spit balling an idea here. What if forge guns (or a variant) did damage based on the amount of charge. Meaning it could be fired early for much less damage. Might be something good for infantry sniping. Like the Charge Sniper; half charge for lower damage, and maybe shorter range, or full charge for full damage. with four shots total in the magazine? Waste of ammo and effort
Could be a variant, larger magazine, higher ROF, less damage per shot. Something good for keeping the pressure up.
Bored, just throwing random stuff out there. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 17:11:00 -
[87] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Just spit balling an idea here. What if forge guns (or a variant) did damage based on the amount of charge. Meaning it could be fired early for much less damage. Might be something good for infantry sniping. Like the Charge Sniper; half charge for lower damage, and maybe shorter range, or full charge for full damage. with four shots total in the magazine? Waste of ammo and effort Could be a variant, larger magazine, higher ROF, less damage per shot. Something good for keeping the pressure up. Bored, just throwing random stuff out there.
that would be under the AI heavy weapons bit actually
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.08.22 17:14:00 -
[88] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Eh, sure. I forge snipe with an Assault Forge Gun anyway so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.
And what are balance decisions if not a means by which to tailor the game to better fit my playstyle?
Will the proposed change affect me negatively? Opposed.
Will the proposed change affect me positively? In Favor.
Will the proposed change not affect me in the slightest? Eh, sure. :: A moment inside Aeon's mind ::
@ Breakin - I don't see any problem holding a charge on a sniper rifle or nova knives or maintaining target lock indefinitely with a swarm launcher. What is the basis for implementing a mechanical restriction on the Forge Gun? Is Forge Sniping that big of a problem?
it's a tradeoff. Being able to wait indefinitely to alpha a passing tank or dropship the instant they put themselves into a bad spot should require timing and some forethought, not the ability to simply hold a charge forever from a rooftop.
That and I'd like it to be slightly harder to use a forge gun as a sniper rifle to pick off infantry, personally. The assault is "all or nothing" but it's generally only used by people who have been using it forever to begin with and have the forge gun behaviors down to a science anyway.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
3
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Posted - 2015.08.23 08:09:00 -
[89] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Eh, sure. I forge snipe with an Assault Forge Gun anyway so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.
And what are balance decisions if not a means by which to tailor the game to better fit my playstyle?
Will the proposed change affect me negatively? Opposed.
Will the proposed change affect me positively? In Favor.
Will the proposed change not affect me in the slightest? Eh, sure. :: A moment inside Aeon's mind ::
@ Breakin - I don't see any problem holding a charge on a sniper rifle or nova knives or maintaining target lock indefinitely with a swarm launcher. What is the basis for implementing a mechanical restriction on the Forge Gun? Is Forge Sniping that big of a problem? it's a tradeoff. Being able to wait indefinitely to alpha a passing tank or dropship the instant they put themselves into a bad spot should require timing and some forethought, not the ability to simply hold a charge forever from a rooftop. That and I'd like it to be slightly harder to use a forge gun as a sniper rifle to pick off infantry, personally. The assault is "all or nothing" but it's generally only used by people who have been using it forever to begin with and have the forge gun behaviors down to a science anyway.
The splash makes infantry sniping easy mode from an elevated vantage point (Much like mass drivers, Flaylocks and PLC`s) however the regular charge and hold in my opinion is a much more viable weapon for absolute infantry sniping from all elevations.
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.23 10:04:00 -
[90] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Eh, sure. I forge snipe with an Assault Forge Gun anyway so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.
And what are balance decisions if not a means by which to tailor the game to better fit my playstyle?
Will the proposed change affect me negatively? Opposed.
Will the proposed change affect me positively? In Favor.
Will the proposed change not affect me in the slightest? Eh, sure. :: A moment inside Aeon's mind ::
@ Breakin - I don't see any problem holding a charge on a sniper rifle or nova knives or maintaining target lock indefinitely with a swarm launcher. What is the basis for implementing a mechanical restriction on the Forge Gun? Is Forge Sniping that big of a problem?
Adipem you could twist a child's Happy Birthday song and make it into something it is not. I was stating that because while it is awesome that this change limits forge sniping with vanilla forge guns in a small way, it doesn't address the fact that forge sniping > sniping. There is no sway, if you hit them you are -GUARANTEED- to kill them, and you can remain mobile while doing so. You put the reticle over the target, if it lights up red, they die.
I pointed out the fact that yes, it would affect normal forge gun sniping, but it isn't addressing the core issue of the problem. I'm sorry I didn't make this blatantly clear and directly say that but I didn't feel that I needed to at the time. I understand now that I was wrong and that from now on I need to make things as painfully obvious as possible using complete sentences and baby speak or expect to be needlessly painted as the villain because you just do not like me for whatever reason, enough so that you have -directly stated- that amends cannot be made.
Look dude, I've told you once before (in The Barbershop no less) that I am willing to bury the hatchet with you but if you're not going to meet me halfway on that than you can absolutely 100% expect to be visiting another representative for the remainder of the term because [i]I'm just not going to deal with you[/i]  I am not going to beg you to co-operate with me.
Thanks for all the support guys, let's fix Dust 514
:D
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