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Megaman Trigger
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Posted - 2015.08.14 20:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Buff raw HP for a HAVs primary tank and maybe return passive resistance skills and plates, tone down Active Hardeners, move Heavy Reps to Active rather than Passive (keep light reps as Passive or introduce native reps)
Would that be a balance, or at least a start, both sides could agree on or work from?
Purifier. First Class.
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Megaman Trigger
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440
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Posted - 2015.08.14 23:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
General Mosquito wrote:If I can do it in a scout suit with std av and proto nades and less than 3 million SP in suits, there is no excuse for anyone else to not be able to do it.
As an AV Sentinel, I have to disagree with this statement, is only because Commandos can't use AV Grenades and because our (Sentinel) fat asses can't get close to a HAV unless it comes to us. The Forge is also slower to charge than a Plasma Cannon and hits for less Alpha, so even if we did get close, 3 'nades and a charge shot may not drop the tank
Purifier. First Class.
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Megaman Trigger
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441
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Posted - 2015.08.14 23:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
General Mosquito wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:
As an AV Sentinel, I have to disagree with this statement, is only because Commandos can't use AV Grenades and because our (Sentinel) fat asses can't get close to a HAV unless it comes to us. The Forge is also slower to charge than a Plasma Cannon and hits for less Alpha, so even if we did get close, 3 'nades and a charge shot may not drop the tank
Here is the thing: You are not your dropsuit, and your dropsuit is not a fixed role. If your goal is to destroy a tank, you should use what works, not what you want to work. I always thought that the heavy should be the primary AV unit, but CCP clearly thinks differently. I don't make the rules, but I do intend to win within them. Playing to win matters more than trying to respect your SP investment.
Which makes an entire class obsolete and pointless. What's the point of Heavy weapons if Light weapons do the job better? Why have Sentinels if Assaults and Scouts can perform their role just as well, if not better?
Forge Guns should be a viable option for taking down HAVs, as should non-Minmatar/Caldari Commandos. Gunnlogi should b a viable HAV choice. If the only viable AV fit is Plasma Cannon and AV Grenades on a Light/Scout frame, then there's an issue, just like if the only viable HAV fit is double hardened Madruger. If there's no other options, for either AV or HAV, then there's a serious issue.
Purifier. First Class.
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Megaman Trigger
Ready to Play
441
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Posted - 2015.08.15 02:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
General Mosquito wrote:You're preaching to the choir on that front.
But ask yourself, do I want to destroy tanks or wear a fat suit? If you want to destroy vehicles, the fat suit is not the most effective.
And that is something that needs to change, and I don't think the problem is the suit. Not entirely.
HAVs are out of balance with themselves, which needs to be addressed. Too fragile while unhardened, too resilient while hardened. Gunnlogis need something to make them a viable alternative. Both need more options in terms of modules. Buffing raw HP and/or add passive resist (hardeners would need toning down for balance with the latter) and moving Heavy Reps to active would be a start for sorting the HAVs, then shield HAVs can be looked at more and adjusted further.
Sentinels need more AV options, hell, more Heavy weapon options in general. They need a shield AV option and a shield AI weapon. Preferably bring them up to two weapons, one AV and one AI, for each race.
Purifier. First Class.
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Megaman Trigger
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442
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Posted - 2015.08.15 11:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:General Mosquito wrote:You're preaching to the choir on that front.
But ask yourself, do I want to destroy tanks or wear a fat suit? If you want to destroy vehicles, the fat suit is not the most effective. And that is something that needs to change, and I don't think the problem is the suit. Not entirely. HAVs are out of balance with themselves, which needs to be addressed. Too fragile while unhardened, too resilient while hardened. Gunnlogis need something to make them a viable alternative. Both need more options in terms of modules. Buffing raw HP and/or add passive resist (hardeners would need toning down for balance with the latter) and moving Heavy Reps to active would be a start for sorting the HAVs, then shield HAVs can be looked at more and adjusted further. Sentinels need more AV options, hell, more Heavy weapon options in general. They need a shield AV option and a shield AI weapon. Preferably bring them up to two weapons, one AV and one AI, for each race. I would disagree that direct resilience is necessarily the problem. The problem is the constant recovery resulting in that massive resilience (on Armor Tanks), followed by a quick turn around back into combat...the problem isn't that the HAVs can take damage, it's that Damage doesn't stick to HAVs. Even shield HAVs have this problem to some degree...just without the benefit of direct resilience from it. The problem is with the Reps, not the Hardeners (although hardeners need changed from long duration/cooldown to short duration/cooldown), not the plates/extenders (although these could provide a little more HP...and not suck as much at lower tiers...or at light modules), not even necessarily the hulls/mobility (Mobility could use a bit of toning down). Overall as I've said time and time again, it's the setup of HAVs as skirmishing oriented Attack Platforms, when they should be more like siege oriented Combat Platforms
Hardeners may not be the problem by themselves, but the combination of Hardeners and Passive Reps is. Separately neither is that big an issue, and in fact are likely working as intended, but when combined the result is invinsi-tank. As you said, damage just doesn't stick.
Tankers have said, and I can agree, that without Hardeners a HAV is too fragile. So buff the HP for the hulls. If that's not enough, a small passive resistance can be added and Active Hardeners reduced to balance. Make it attractive, or at least viable, to run HP over resistance.
Active Reps definitely need to a thing again. Fuel Injector needs a rework when combined with Hardeners to stop instant acceleration the moment things go south. Perhaps activating a Hardener reduces acceleration and top speed, much like fitting a plate, due the Hardeners making the armour much denser and heavier. Or it can be a result of high power drain.
Purifier. First Class.
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Megaman Trigger
Ready to Play
443
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Posted - 2015.08.15 19:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:General Mosquito wrote:You're preaching to the choir on that front.
But ask yourself, do I want to destroy tanks or wear a fat suit? If you want to destroy vehicles, the fat suit is not the most effective. And that is something that needs to change, and I don't think the problem is the suit. Not entirely. HAVs are out of balance with themselves, which needs to be addressed. Too fragile while unhardened, too resilient while hardened. Gunnlogis need something to make them a viable alternative. Both need more options in terms of modules. Buffing raw HP and/or add passive resist (hardeners would need toning down for balance with the latter) and moving Heavy Reps to active would be a start for sorting the HAVs, then shield HAVs can be looked at more and adjusted further. Sentinels need more AV options, hell, more Heavy weapon options in general. They need a shield AV option and a shield AI weapon. Preferably bring them up to two weapons, one AV and one AI, for each race. I would disagree that direct resilience is necessarily the problem. The problem is the constant recovery resulting in that massive resilience (on Armor Tanks), followed by a quick turn around back into combat...the problem isn't that the HAVs can take damage, it's that Damage doesn't stick to HAVs. Even shield HAVs have this problem to some degree...just without the benefit of direct resilience from it. The problem is with the Reps, not the Hardeners (although hardeners need changed from long duration/cooldown to short duration/cooldown), not the plates/extenders (although these could provide a little more HP...and not suck as much at lower tiers...or at light modules), not even necessarily the hulls/mobility (Mobility could use a bit of toning down). Overall as I've said time and time again, it's the setup of HAVs as skirmishing oriented Attack Platforms, when they should be more like siege oriented Combat Platforms Hardeners may not be the problem by themselves, but the combination of Hardeners and Passive Reps is. Separately neither is that big an issue, and in fact are likely working as intended, but when combined the result is invinsi-tank. As you said, damage just doesn't stick. Tankers have said, and I can agree, that without Hardeners a HAV is too fragile. So buff the HP for the hulls. If that's not enough, a small passive resistance can be added and Active Hardeners reduced to balance. Make it attractive, or at least viable, to run HP over resistance. Active Reps definitely need to a thing again. Fuel Injector needs a rework when combined with Hardeners to stop instant acceleration the moment things go south. Perhaps activating a Hardener reduces acceleration and top speed, much like fitting a plate, due the Hardeners making the armour much denser and heavier. Or it can be a result of high power drain. I would dissagree that hulls need more HP, it's the buffer modules that need to provide more...adding hp to the hulls just further encourages multi-hardened builds...in fact HAV hulls may even need to have their HP reduced (The Maddy in Particular). Also, I would argue that, on their own merits Hardeners are fine, but Passive Reps are broken at their current repair levels. Combining something that is fine, but amplifies the power of something broken just results in the broken thing being even worse off
Disagree about reducing HAV hull HP. If higher hull HP encourages multi-hardener fits, either nerf the Hardeners in function or fitting costs (higher costs, can't fit multiple) or buff their function slightly and cap their numbers.
Purifier. First Class.
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