DUST Search - Points system should not discourage teamwork

Sha Kharn Clone wrote:

Boss Dirge wrote:

Sha Kharn Clone wrote:

Yep as a dropship pilot i get hardly anything for people spawning on me. Sometimes when im not failing I come out with 0:0 KD but still hardly any sp even tho well in my mind I was being well helpful providing a mobile spawn point. If i run around as a scout I get 3 x what I would as a drop pilot.

Only thing that keeps me doing it is hearing a noob go " **** that was cool" After they skydive out and hammer a target.

Least give the dropship dudes some kill assits for the first 10 seconds killing after the guys jump out maybe ?

how would you feel about points being awarded for simply transporting team mates without getting blown up? Say you successfully transport 3 people and you got say 75 points per person who were successfully dropped? As long as they are on the ground you wouldn't have to hang around and get shot at while you hoped they scored some kills.

Hell if I got 75 points per drop then I would say give me -200 for every guy that gets killed if I go boom with them onboard.

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[Veteran_Scarving] 0	Posted - 2012.06.11 22:21:00 - [1] - Quote The killpoints/hackpoints system encourages selfish behaviour. What different scoring systems would encourage teamwork? Hello all In game, saw a heavy shooting a guy, joined in, and killed him with my first shot (yay) - and so I got the kill bonus instead of the heavy who did all the work... We're supposed to be playing for the same objective, but the scoring system means that teammates are really competing against each other. In game, go to hack a terminal, check first it's clear, and go to hack, but someone has beaten me to it. They get the points... So if I see a red start to shoot him, I'll perhaps hesitate a bit before helping him out? Maybe he'll die, I can finish off the red dot, and I can go for the hack. Well good job there's politeness and civilisation that prevents that sort of thing most of the time. Noticed how differently FPS games play when everybody is already at top level with a full inventory? When people aren't competing for points, they compete for the win (which is the point of the game). Noticed how differently FPS games play when someone is starting again and trying to rack up the points as fast as possible in order to level up and get decent weapons? The only thing stopping them from "stealing kills" and teamkilling-the-hacker-to-get-the-hack-points is the desire to keep a good reputation... Immediate rewards, such as pop-up scores, strongly influence behaviour (ask any pigeon in a lab); the pop-up scoring in the closed beta immediately rewards selfish behaviour - the eventual penalties for selfish behaviour are much more subtle, as are rewards for cooperation. So, been wondering all weekend about how a scoring system could encourage cooperation and discourage selfish behaviour... this problem is hard. Obviously, otherwise CCP would already have a different system in place... How could pop-up scores encourage people to stick together and take down targets together? How could pop-up scores encourage people to stand guard and defend a team member while they're hacking something? Question for the design team, is what scoring systems have been explored? Is there a behavioural psychologist as well as an economist on the team? Question for the forum, is what other scoring systems have you seen work and actively encourage people to teamwork and cooperate. What games? How well did the scoring system achieve its goals? Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
[Veteran_DemonicChaos] 0	Posted - 2012.06.11 22:29:00 - [2] - Quote Only way I see is to take all points earned and split between all member with best performing members getting more
[Veteran_Scarving] 0	Posted - 2012.06.11 22:39:00 - [3] - Quote Good point - by removing all the pop-up points, people aren't competing for them anymore, so the only thing left to play for is the win, and you got to play for the win otherwise you get no points at all. That sort of thing? How about your experience with other FPS, did any have a different scoring system than the usual "kill shot gets X points"?
[Veteran_Alpha SnakeBlood] 0	Posted - 2012.06.11 22:46:00 - [4] - Quote As for the kill part and mabye the hack even is to take the assist out and just have a system simular to the killboard on eve where all particapents of a kill and or hack are all rewarded equaly with a kill this would encourage people to stick together as it would no longer have the they keep stealing my kill no longer will people be in a rush to be first to hack a objective/building often ignoring enemies in hope team will pop them another thing which i think should be implemented would be a way to reward the fella who just covered the fella going for the objective/building as they are every bit as nessesary as the fella on the terminal.
[Veteran_Boss Dirge] 0	Posted - 2012.06.11 22:47:00 - [5] - Quote I find teamwork happens on its own with the point system the way it is. Even without coms me and hmg'er were able to hold a defence relay from being capped by 7 opposing players simply because we knew what our roles were. He provided defense for me while i re-capped the relay. He got 9 kills to my 5, but i got extra points for doing the relay hacking. The rest of our team got 0 kills, but perhaps they got hacking points as well. All in all I think if you aren't a teamkilling ****tard the point system works pretty well. Props to "Petout's Slave" for the voiceless psychic communication in that match btw.
[Veteran_Baal Roo] 0	Posted - 2012.06.11 22:55:00 - [6] - Quote There are a few things that could help alleviate these problems, without scrapping the pop-up scoring altogether. First off, I've seen others mention other games where you get a percentage of the points for a kill, based on what percentage of the damage you did, not whether or not you fired the finishing shot. If a guy has 100 HP (for simplicity sake) and you take 75 points of it, and your teammate finishes off the final 25. Instead of you getting an assist, and your teammate getting a kill, you would get 75 pts and your teammate would get 25... but you only get the points when the guy actually dies. Same could be done for destroying vehicles and installations. Second, there could be an AoE for all points earned. If you're within 25 feet of a guy who hacks an installation, maybe you get a hacking assist... thus, giving you very good reason, points wise, to help defend the guy hacking. Lastly, and most importantly, once the full game experience exists, your skill points and such that you win in battle, I would assume, are going to be much less important than the gains you make from completing contracts. This game should, theoretically, end up being much more about building reputations for your corporations/guilds/whatever they are called for DUST than it is about gaining a few more SP to level your Forge Gun damage another 3%. Sure, there will be CoD scrubs looking to maximize their K/Ds and such, but once they get out into low and null sec no one is going to give a rat's ass about their K/D to hire them for the REAL work, if they can't seem to produce results in a team environment.
[Veteran_Shadowz42] 0	Posted - 2012.06.11 23:17:00 - [7] - Quote lesser known fact, you get points when people use the drop uplink to placed more things like this that promote teamwork?
[Veteran_Scarving] 0	Posted - 2012.06.11 23:18:00 - [8] - Quote Interesting, thanks. Alpha SnakeBlood's eve killboard would certainly encourage people to engage the same targets together, no more competing for points, so that's a bonus right there. Boss Dirge's point about experienced players confirms what I'd noticed about people ignoring the pop-up points: intelligence and wisdom does eventually assert itself. I feel it's a shame that it has to fight against the gut-reaction that the pop-up points provide Baal Roo's sharing of points according to damage done is very equitable, and will even encourage people to get more shots on target, rewarding effort without competing against team members. And keeping the pop-up provides instant feed-back too which tells people what to do. This would be similar to Resistance 2's Coop mode scoring, yes? Area of Effect is good too, I don't think I've seen that one before. I can see how that would get people to cover the hacker instead of wanting to TK them - especially since because the "guard" has to stay close for the AoE to work, he's likely to get him by anyone attacking the hacker, so double incentive there to guard effectively instead of just standing around staring at the hacker. Thanks also for the info in the last point, which comes under the "intelligence and wisdom" heading, rather than the knee-jerk reaction the pop-up scoring provokes. Edit: oops, sorry Shadowz42, our posts crossed. Good point, that's a good encouragement for placing the droplink in a useful place - the more useful, the more people will use it, the more points you get. So - keep pop-up scores, the give instant feedback on what is "good" behaviour - kill points are given pro rata damage dealt, and not just 100% to whomever shot the killing bullet - hack scores have area of effect - pro-rata time based perhaps - deploying coop equipment gives pop-up points when your team uses it Seems simple enough What other actions could be encouraged/rewarded through pop-up instant scores?
[Veteran_vickers S grunt] 0	Posted - 2012.06.11 23:33:00 - [9] - Quote I think there should be much more points for teambased actions such as transport piloting and watching over hacking team mates . As it stands now the game is not rewarding team play as much as it should personaly i have tryed suport my fellow grunts but it simply is not supplying anywhere near as much sp as going it alone . Also its pointless to even hold the first 2 objectives as i find i can get more sp for a loss at the base than a win at the first 2 boxes. Winning the match at the first objective should provide a bonus of sp to counter this .
[Veteran_Sha Kharn Clone] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 00:08:00 - [10] - Quote Yep as a dropship pilot i get hardly anything for people spawning on me. Sometimes when im not failing I come out with 0:0 KD but still hardly any sp even tho well in my mind I was being well helpful providing a mobile spawn point. If i run around as a scout I get 3 x what I would as a drop pilot. Only thing that keeps me doing it is hearing a noob go " **** that was cool" After they skydive out and hammer a target. Least give the dropship dudes some kill assits for the first 10 seconds killing after the guys jump out maybe ?

[Veteran_Boss Dirge] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 00:14:00 - [11] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Yep as a dropship pilot i get hardly anything for people spawning on me. Sometimes when im not failing I come out with 0:0 KD but still hardly any sp even tho well in my mind I was being well helpful providing a mobile spawn point. If i run around as a scout I get 3 x what I would as a drop pilot. Only thing that keeps me doing it is hearing a noob go " **** that was cool" After they skydive out and hammer a target. Least give the dropship dudes some kill assits for the first 10 seconds killing after the guys jump out maybe ? how would you feel about points being awarded for simply transporting team mates without getting blown up? Say you successfully transport 3 people and you got say 75 points per person who were successfully dropped? As long as they are on the ground you wouldn't have to hang around and get shot at while you hoped they scored some kills.
[Veteran_Waruiko DUST] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 00:25:00 - [12] - Quote Hmm I think for the most part WP is working fine with three major issues. 1) Support skills and actions like dropship piloting gain you no points or at least very few and these roles should be better rewarded. 2) You should get some bonus as a team when you win, and a bigger bonus for winning hard enough, like +10% for winning and +20% for stopping the fight at first phase or docking the MCC with over 50% shields left. 3) Major accomplishments that by their nature are meant to be team activities should give points to all team members. Destroying A/B or hacking A/B/C should give 15 to 25 points to every member of the team rather then just the 150/100 to the person who made the hack or landed the last blow while 5 of their squad mates died buying time. I do think some personal extra reward would be appropriate, but it shouldn't be higher then the bonus given to everyone.
[Veteran_SLASH Brawler] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 00:26:00 - [13] - Quote Hacking you do share points depending on how long you hacked the target. I have seen 12%,33%,74% hack rewards many times. It is the same for the bonus on changing a letter you get half or whole points depending on how much you hacked something. But I definetly agree with getting more points for certain tasks like flying the drop ship etc.
[Veteran_Sha Kharn Clone] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 00:30:00 - [14] - Quote Boss Dirge wrote: Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Yep as a dropship pilot i get hardly anything for people spawning on me. Sometimes when im not failing I come out with 0:0 KD but still hardly any sp even tho well in my mind I was being well helpful providing a mobile spawn point. If i run around as a scout I get 3 x what I would as a drop pilot. Only thing that keeps me doing it is hearing a noob go " **** that was cool" After they skydive out and hammer a target. Least give the dropship dudes some kill assits for the first 10 seconds killing after the guys jump out maybe ? how would you feel about points being awarded for simply transporting team mates without getting blown up? Say you successfully transport 3 people and you got say 75 points per person who were successfully dropped? As long as they are on the ground you wouldn't have to hang around and get shot at while you hoped they scored some kills. Hell if I got 75 points per drop then I would say give me -200 for every guy that gets killed if I go boom with them onboard.
[Veteran_Boss Dirge] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 00:35:00 - [15] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Boss Dirge wrote: Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Yep as a dropship pilot i get hardly anything for people spawning on me. Sometimes when im not failing I come out with 0:0 KD but still hardly any sp even tho well in my mind I was being well helpful providing a mobile spawn point. If i run around as a scout I get 3 x what I would as a drop pilot. Only thing that keeps me doing it is hearing a noob go " **** that was cool" After they skydive out and hammer a target. Least give the dropship dudes some kill assits for the first 10 seconds killing after the guys jump out maybe ? how would you feel about points being awarded for simply transporting team mates without getting blown up? Say you successfully transport 3 people and you got say 75 points per person who were successfully dropped? As long as they are on the ground you wouldn't have to hang around and get shot at while you hoped they scored some kills. Hell if I got 75 points per drop then I would say give me -200 for every guy that gets killed if I go boom with them onboard. okay, lol, perhaps 75 is a little high. Never being in a dropship myself I can't say how hard it is to get one into place and successfully deploy. Maybe 25? Not sure, but I think what ever role you are filling you should be rewarded with WP. I also think the cost of losing your dropship is more than enough penalty for getting blown up.
[Veteran_Alpha SnakeBlood] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 00:37:00 - [16] - Quote Just remembered a system that was from assasins creed brotherhood, when a team blended in close proximity/same general area there incoming score was multiplied by the amount of players in the group, for SP this would be way over powered in my opionion but mabye for Isk or something still seems overpowered, as system like this would encourage people to tackel objecctives or building or even enemies as a group as it would boost all of there scores. On second thought mabye it should not count for team mates but only squad and have a max multiplier of either 3 or 4 simlpy because it would open up some serious point farming if a system like this was not balenced carfully
[Veteran_Sha Kharn Clone] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 00:49:00 - [17] - Quote I think its 15 pts per spawn on the drop ship atm. Seems a little low to me tbh 20-25 would do.
[Veteran_Orin Fenris] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 01:06:00 - [18] - Quote I am fine with the way skill points are attributed now. I think the game rewards teamwork in other ways. More important ways. However, I would like to see points for re-capturing a lettered objective, seeing as that is probably the most difficult thing to do, and you seemingly get no bonuses for it. Also, I find that sometimes (it seems to go in streaks), I'll only make maybe 5-10k skill points in a game, then, in another game, I'll do the same thing, probably even less, and get 50k+ skill points. I have NO IDEA why it's so random, but an explanation of some sort would be appreciated. if they keep this up, i'm not looking forward to making <1k isk per match. painful :P
[Veteran_sendeth] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 04:51:00 - [19] - Quote +1 internets. reward teamwork.
[Veteran_Scarving] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 12:40:00 - [20] - Quote Thanks for the good points; I see there's a lot about making a show of rewarding things that currently seem to go unrewarded, I'll have a stab at summarising them this evening (european). How about the other side of the coin: any more examples of pop-up scoring that currently penalises teamwork?



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