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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.08.04 15:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let's take a look at this objectively real quick. When I get into a match I look at a few things:
1) Did I get in at the start of the match or am I being thrown in as filler for someone else that already left? (players usually don't leave battles they are winning)
2) How badly are we outnumbered? (this should never be a factor in the start of a match)
3.a) What does the other team look like; are they mostly comprised of squads?
3.b) What does my team look like; are they mostly comprised of academy freshies? (I can't be expected to lead people to victory as a veteran when I have no way of communicating with them)
5) What is the state of the map when I join; are most of the objectives red? (why should I be expected to fight an uphill battle and/or pickup the slack for the rest of my team?)
Truth be told there are some matches that just aren't worth the trouble. There is no incentive to fighting a losing battle except for some e-bushido and kudos. Pub matches are a little different because you still get an ISK reward for it in the end, so you can maybe run BPO suits and come out with a profit but it's probably going to be a grueling experience due to the lack of performance from your gear. Faction Warfare is a completely different story as there is very little incentive to fighting those losing battles - the lack of a matchmaker (note that I don't think this should change) means that a bunch of academy freshies can join in and not have a freaggin clue of what they're doing. I just left a match in which a player was trying to shoot me with a Swarm Launcher.
So when you get into an FW match in which your team is pulled randomly from the que, you're sometimes subject to one-sided fights. But what benefit is there to stay? You get dramatically less LP, no standings gains, and 40% of your ISK loss. With the time you'd spend doing that you'd be better off waiting for another match that might be in your favor, and thusly people leave early. This isn't even touching on the fact that it is just a horrible experience to spend the majority of the match spawning/walking around without getting anything accomplished.
Punishing players for leaving is -NOT- going to solve these problems, it'll just make them turn off the PS3 and go do something else. If I have to throw out a collateral for a battle that I get screwed in, or if I have to sit and wait for a timer to expire before I get into another match, you can bet your ass I'm not going to be playing this game much anymore - I'll go find something better to do. There needs to be more incentive to stick with the battle from beginning to end, more value in actually fighting. Give players a -REASON- to stick around, don't give them -MORE REASONS NOT TO-.
What it comes down to is a simple question: WHY should I stay in the battles I know aren't going to be in my favor?
Instead of trying to fix the match maker (which has had a negative effect if the forums are any clue) maybe we should be looking at what incentives there are to actually staying in a match that is primarily affecting the things that are important to us: Stats, wallets, time, enjoyability, and personal feeling of accomplishment.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.08.04 15:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alcina Nektaria wrote:Your points are well made. However, staying in the match to fight can prove to be fun. I know I've been in terribly losing matches before, but I stayed just for the lols of killing people.
What few realize is that people follow patterns. If you figure out a way to counter those patterns in the long run it will make you a better player. Besides, there is nothing wrong with switching to an Apex or other free suit and just going to town. Go take a dropship somewhere high and start blasting out installations with AV fits or focus on enemy vehicles. Regardless, you are losing out on SP and ISK to be gained by leaving the battle.
Do I care when I get put on a team against a Qsync of 0.H.? No, I stay and fight and try my hardest to get on their level.
That isn't often the case in FW as you get no ISK reward and the LP payouts for losing are sub-optimal unless you're using boosters or have a very high rank. Since you don't get standings for losing... You're likely not going to increase in rank after consistent losses.
In Pubs, yes, absolutely you will get ISK - but not as much as winning it seems and players shouldn't be expected to escalate when they're going ISK negative in doing so. This creates a negative feedback loop in which the losing team, which dies more often, will either have to escalate the gear used and pay out of pocket for it in the end... or start running BPO's and lower their performance. Whereas the winning team can freely escalate (dying less) to high end gear without worrying too much about going ISK negative. They -also- get access to more orbitals due to the higher WP gains from their winning.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.08.04 16:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
mr musturd wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Alcina Nektaria wrote:Your points are well made. However, staying in the match to fight can prove to be fun. I know I've been in terribly losing matches before, but I stayed just for the lols of killing people.
What few realize is that people follow patterns. If you figure out a way to counter those patterns in the long run it will make you a better player. Besides, there is nothing wrong with switching to an Apex or other free suit and just going to town. Go take a dropship somewhere high and start blasting out installations with AV fits or focus on enemy vehicles. Regardless, you are losing out on SP and ISK to be gained by leaving the battle.
Do I care when I get put on a team against a Qsync of 0.H.? No, I stay and fight and try my hardest to get on their level. That isn't often the case in FW as you get no ISK reward and the LP payouts for losing are sub-optimal unless you're using boosters or have a very high rank. Since you don't get standings for losing... You're likely not going to increase in rank after consistent losses. In Pubs, yes, absolutely you will get ISK - but not as much as winning it seems and players shouldn't be expected to escalate when they're going ISK negative in doing so. This creates a negative feedback loop in which the losing team, which dies more often, will either have to escalate the gear used and pay out of pocket for it in the end... or start running BPO's and lower their performance. Whereas the winning team can freely escalate (dying less) to high end gear without worrying too much about going ISK negative. They -also- get access to more orbitals due to the higher WP gains from their winning. Your right aeon but minus 2pts for using the words "negative feedback"
Contrary Reaction.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.08.04 16:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mortishai Belmont wrote:Only pansies leave battles because they're outnumbered, redlined, or it's an "Up hill" battle.
And here, ladies and gentlemen, is an excellent example of what I was referring to with 'E-Bushido'.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.08.04 16:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alcina Nektaria wrote:
Higher WP isn't always the case. You could actually just pull out a rep tool or keep dropping uplinks and gain massive amounts of wp. Yeah that falls under the taboo of "WP Farming" but it's a necessary case where it is acceptable. WP are also the reason squadding up is adventageous, you have the potential to make a ton of WP to drop them obs. Or just find a factional Eve Pilot to drop OBs for you. There's many ways to be productive instead of leaving a battle. And you still get ISK payout for factionals even if you lose.
Winning team gets less isk if they don't lose as many suits. You still get, what 20% of your losses? That still applies to using BPOs and cheap suits I believe.
O.o; no, you don't get ISK payout for FW. You get ISK reimbursement of your losses and if we're seriously advocating BPOs and cheap-fits in what is supposed to be a more competitive game mode, we're doing something seriously wrong. Again, what is the incentive to run better gear and go for that win if you're starkly losing? There isn't any, you just downgrade cheaper and cheaper to save ISK and decrease your own performance while the enemy increases their's.
This is one of those times I'm seriously considering the plausibility of making Squad-less game modes and meta-level lockouts as a fallback to this sort of behavior. Which is, in and of itself, contrary to the New Eden theme.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.08.04 16:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Staying in a pub match measn much a ISk higer payout.
Fighting a FW match to the bitter end and losing by one tick gives you the same LP payout as being redlined from start to finish.
The attitude you are describing is one of a player that refuses to play unless everything is aligned in his favor.
- Inferior enemies
- Objectives going my way
- We outnumber them
- Superior blueberries.
If anyone of these is against him, he quits. And good riddance.
And who is he impressing when he stays and loses anyhow..?
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.08.04 16:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dust User wrote:Another example of the pubstar alliance mentality.
When you enter the polling booth make sure you ask yourself if this is the kind of representation you're looking for.
Personally, I want to be represented by someone with high regard for honor and dignity.
Vote Dust User for CPM 2.
Still waiting on you to elaborate where all this honor and dignity comes from apart from baseless claims.
I mean, everyone knows that if you want to be represented by someone with honor and dignity you need to vote for me. An honorable man will explain his position.
See how easy that claim is to make? Hell, I'd reckon I'm the most honorable out of all the candidates.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.04 21:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alcina Nektaria wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Alcina Nektaria wrote:
Higher WP isn't always the case. You could actually just pull out a rep tool or keep dropping uplinks and gain massive amounts of wp. Yeah that falls under the taboo of "WP Farming" but it's a necessary case where it is acceptable. WP are also the reason squadding up is adventageous, you have the potential to make a ton of WP to drop them obs. Or just find a factional Eve Pilot to drop OBs for you. There's many ways to be productive instead of leaving a battle. And you still get ISK payout for factionals even if you lose.
Winning team gets less isk if they don't lose as many suits. You still get, what 20% of your losses? That still applies to using BPOs and cheap suits I believe.
O.o; no, you don't get ISK payout for FW. You get ISK reimbursement of your losses and if we're seriously advocating BPOs and cheap-fits in what is supposed to be a more competitive game mode, we're doing something seriously wrong. Again, what is the incentive to run better gear and go for that win if you're starkly losing? There isn't any, you just downgrade cheaper and cheaper to save ISK and decrease your own performance while the enemy increases their's. This is one of those times I'm seriously considering the plausibility of making Squad-less game modes and meta-level lockouts as a fallback to this sort of behavior. Which is, in and of itself, contrary to the New Eden theme. Then run Proto and get a 20% reimbursement for your loss. Regardless leaving a match because things aren't in your favor is just absurd and you are just contributing to the broken matchmaking. Your team's MCC could be down to 3/4 armor and still turn the game around. Hell, even half armor. It's a matter of approach. Do you want to clone the enemy team if there's no way of getting and holding objectives, or do you want to actually attempt to hold objectives. In reality, the way to combat a team or squad of people is to have one of your own unless you are a super slayer star that there are so few of in this game to begin with. I don't know how many times it has to be reiterated that Dust514 is built on the premise of working together with team-mates. That is essentially one of the many things that sets it apart from other FPS games.
Now why on earth is it absurd that I, a man who works a full time job and is a full time student, would want to have an enjoyable if challenging experience in the limited time that I have to actually sit down and play the game..? And no, when the MCC is at half armor is -VERY- difficult to turn the game around because of two primary factors: A) The time it takes to complete a hack. Note that this is not hacking the panel, this is turning the null cannon over to your team, which takes a while. B) MCC cannons will destroy your MCC even if you have all the objectives in your favor.
It is still very possible to lose even if you do manage to turn it around and thusly a lot of players will look at that situation upon joining a match and think, "Well I can stay and get a few thousand ISK or I can try again". There is no incentive to sticking around when you're getting marginal rewards for joining in late and also losing.
And yes, the solo vs team debate is everlasting and I have had -MULTIPLE- arguments about it on Skype but what it comes down to is this:
If you honestly expect players to work as a team you need to give them more ways to -ACT- like a team. This means actually being able to form and join squads mid-battle, being able to communicate with your team outside of unreliable voice commands (seriously, Battlefield has us completely trumped on this), and encouraging/incentivizing that behavior. If you want me to lead my team to victory, I'll do it, but it's next to impossible when I can't even communicate with them. Am I supposed to rally my team with tactical shooting of my pistol?
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
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Posted - 2015.08.04 22:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alcina Nektaria wrote:Honestly though, what kind of a CPM candidate are you to sit here and say that you refuse to play matches where you don't win? How can you sit there and be mad because you don't have the advantage. I understand not wanting to play if you are getting beaten to a pulp every single match, but that sounds more like a personal performance issue than a problem with the game.
Point being, you are not making the game any better by being one of those that leaves because you can't pat yourself on the back with a sure win. No one ever wins everything. So what if your free time is limited? Maybe this isn't the game for you and maybe with having such limited time you shouldn't even be running for CPM. How will you deliver to the community as a voice without having the time to dedicate to it?
Don't jump straight to the ad hominem just because you have nothing to counter what I'm saying besides "Oh well you should stay in the match because I said so". The team communication aspect of this game has been sorely lacking since day one and that has gotten -WORSE-, not better, especially with the removal of channels in battle. You can't start a squad if you can't see the team readout. In fact, I'm wondering why they even have the team readout anymore as it is fundamentally useless apart from shouting in the darkness asking if anyone has a mic only to be met with absolute silence.
Here's an ambush match in which I made the honest to god effort to turn the match around - I even escalated to using my Prototype Caldari Logi with strategically placed uplinks and nanohives to get a frontline established. It worked, but considering I joined the match with about 15 clones left against their 50, it wasn't surprising when the one warbarge strike (which, as I mentioned before, is a reward for the winning team for already winning) from a -four man squad- ended the match by wiping out my entire team.
And while I'm sure your next argument is "well you shouldn't have been grouped up", that has absolutely nothing to do with what the inevitable point is: Why should I have stayed and bothered for any reason other than the ISK, considering that it is a pub match? If it were a faction warfare match there would be literally no reason to stick around and I would have left as soon as I joined.
That match happened -literally- five minutes ago, and is the most recent match I've played today. Simply hand-waving and saying, "Oh well you're not making it any better by leaving" doesn't interest me, because the only reason you care is because I am a CPM candidate. If I resign my candidacy -right now-, what would be your argument then? That I'm a bastard or a coward for doing it? Doesn't change the fact that I -am- going to leave because I determined it to be a waste of my time and not worth the effort in playing.
Need more evidence? How about the match I played before that where it wasn't even worth the time it took to get into the match.
. You can hand-wave all you want and sideline the argument with "well maybe this isn't the game for you" because you don't -actually have an argument- against why the changes should be made. Fact of the matter is that I've been playing this game for more than three years now and only -now- is players leaving the match becoming a problem. I wonder, which changed? The player base? Or the game? You need only look at the match maker changes for that answer.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.04 23:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dust User wrote:Alcina Nektaria wrote:Honestly though, what kind of a CPM candidate are you to sit here and say that you refuse to play matches where you don't win? How can you sit there and be mad because you don't have the advantage. I understand not wanting to play if you are getting beaten to a pulp every single match, but that sounds more like a personal performance issue than a problem with the game.
Point being, you are not making the game any better by being one of those that leaves because you can't pat yourself on the back with a sure win. No one ever wins everything. So what if your free time is limited? Maybe this isn't the game for you and maybe with having such limited time you shouldn't even be running for CPM. How will you deliver to the community as a voice without having the time to dedicate to it? And this is why you should vote Dust User for CPM 2.
Yes, vote Dust User and his 'public history' of honor which is completely vapid.
Tell me, Dust User, how would -you- go about players leaving battle?
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
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Posted - 2015.08.04 23:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Russel Mendoza wrote:This is a sickining attitude.
Whine whine whine leave battle.
Your one of those reason why matches sucks.
Fight to the bitter end thats what we should be doing.
The only good reason to leave battle is when you get disconnected.
.... Why?
That's the question I can't seem to get an answer to.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
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Aeon Amadi
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Negative-Feedback
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Posted - 2015.08.05 00:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
You are making a valid point despite the ad hominem attacks of those that quite simply don't seem to grasp that the concept is more general than specific.
Simply put there is no reason beyond one you give yourself.
Tu quoque. The argument goes both ways, but no-one is criticizing the players that stay for the suicide mission even if it is an unsound strategy.
Protected Void wrote:
I never leave battle because the match is skewed in terms of numbers, skill level or current progress of the match. These are my reasons:
- I enjoy a challenge and get bored quickly by easy games
- Getting kills on or creating trouble for superior opposition is worth a hundredfold more than easy kills, and therefore allows me to achieve personal victories even if my team can't win
- Leaving matches ruins it for everybody, and basically ensures the game will continue to deliver sub-par matchmaking/team balancing
Every single one of the above points is a good enough reason for me to stay in hard matches. Put together, they make it a no-brainer.
I enjoy a challenge as well - when it is an actual challenge. There is a stark difference between going up against a stronger opponent and going up against a brick wall. You don't learn anything going 1v5, as there is nothing to learn there besides how long you can evade and maybe get a lucky kill. And sure, leaving matches ruins it for everybody, and while I am concerned about the community's interests as a CPM candidate (because I -know- someone is going to bring that up as soon as they read what I'm about to say next) I'm not obligated to hand-hold everyone in the game at the expense of my own enjoyment. EDIT: ESPECIALLY when there is, what I believe, to be a mechanical defect in the match maker and not the players themselves.
We play games to have fun. There are a great deal of us who believe that challenging =/= punishing. Dust 514 is a competitive, difficult game, but that difficulty becomes wholly unnecessary when it comes to things well out of our control such as being placed in matches where we are clearly outnumbered, outgunned, and outskilled - sometimes all at once. And while I would love to follow along with the "stick with it because #reasons" crowd, I personally find little to no enjoyment with spending the majority of my game time staring at the respawn screen.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
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