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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.08.04 16:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:I guess it's easier for you as a CPM but I can't for life of me understand how anyone else has even a shred of faith left in CCP or their word. That's the only reason I could see not telling us if new version (Legion etc) is in development, because they know that not too many of us really believe anything that comes out of their mouths. They actually told you (and everyone else) why they have said nothing over and over and over again over the last year. CCP has had year after year of over-promising, and under-delivering. In fact, their tendency to share too much, that they failed to then deliver on, is where most people's faith in CCP went. CCP's new strategy is to not announce anything until it is basically done. So if and when they announce something new, it's because they're absolutely sure it's happening as opposed to something they might be working on. It's frustrating dealing with silence, but it's a lot worse to be constantly let down by broken promises.
Glad to see where the constant pendulum of transparency is coming from: The CPM, or at least, you.
Dude, are you for real? No, silence is -NEVER- preferable to being informed. Yes, they over-promised. Yes, the under-delivered. But to advocate silence until deployment is the -exact opposite- and far from what we need. One of these days CCP is going to have to stop doing one or the other and find a happy medium, a balance, and now that I see at least one culprit in advocating one extreme of that pendulum, things make a hell of a lot more sense.
How are we supposed to provide the 'meaningful feedback' that CCP keeps talking about to the press if we have nothing to go off of? How are we supposed to sanity check CCP and tell them, "Yeah, this is ********" if we don't see anything until the day of deployment? Don't you realize that that was the primary issue with the Legion announcement in the first place or did you just cover your eyes with a blindfold to that fact?
We -DON'T LIKE SURPRISES-. That much is unanimous amongst the community and if CCP is going to wait until it's set in stone - a done deal - then we're effectively pointless as far as feedback is concerned. And even though I myself am running for CPM 2, I don't think a seven-man focus group should be in charge of the ultimate decision making when it comes to those nuances. Sure, the CPM is the "voice of the community" but look how well that worked out with Project Legion's announcement in the first place.
CCP is taking a -huge- risk of releasing something that their playerbase -DOES NOT WANT- by maintaining complete and total silence. The reaction to Gunjack is understandable and I can sympathize with the players that are angered by it.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
11
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Posted - 2015.08.04 16:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:howard sanchez wrote:Look, I just want to ask this right now - are we gonna get Rouge Wedding'd again?
Is CCP using Shanghai (Dust team) to develop a VR game while doing everything they can to suck the last bits of aurum out of a small but dedicated community of loyalists (if you're playing, reading or thinking about DUST you're a loyalist, all there is to it)?
Because, CCP; I don't want to do that again. Hear me? DON'T DO THAT AGAIN! Gunjack and Dust don't draw from a singular budget. The Shanghai studio is not run from a singular pool of money but rather development is portioned out on a project by project basis AFAIK meaning that the work they do on Gunjack or on maintaining their local shard of EVE does not pull from the income stream of Dust development. Likewise the office itself is not something that functions entirely in a vacuum and 'big ticket' items generally have some level of management level approval from outside the Shanghi studio at some point in their life cycle (this approval is as I understand it tied to allocation of things like the company wide R&D budget). The simple fact is that in gaming if a company has more than one development team there is hardly ever a 1:1 correlation. The common notion that expenditures are 'being taken out of' one projects budget to be 'put into' another is at a functional level misconception in your larger scope modern studios. From my conversations with CCP Devs of many sorts at Fanfest it is clear to me that the company as a whole is working on many projects set in several studios but they each have their own books to balance. Gunjack no more cuts into Dust than Valk cuts into EVE. Were you do actually see a sort of zero sum relationship is when a project is scrapped altogether as was done with WoD those Devs are now working on something else and would not be on their current project if their former one were still live. I can say without hesitation what I have said frequently before. The Dust development team wants Dust to grow, live, and continue. In a perfect world that'd be all anyone needed to know to feel confident but this real world is far from perfect and there are many more constraints and pitfalls than simply intent alone, implementation, capacity, and yes budget/profitability all play roles in that of course. However come end of the day Dust will live or die on an assessment of its own merits, not on the existence, or absence, of other projects being pursued somewhere within the company. Many people declared Dust "dead" after the project legion presentation, but Dust showed merits of its own and is still alive and kicking, it is my hope and active intent to support and further that as much as possible with the obvious aim to get the game ported (hopefully to PS4 and PC) so it does not end with the PS3. Gunjack is not a worry for Dust, it's just a separate entry in the CCP catalog. 0.02 ISK
Thank you for the explanation.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.04 21:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I'm not advocating for silence, so much as explaining why they are silent on the long term future. The entire company is on that page, and you and I are not going to get them to change it.
That's also not to say they have to get to deployment day before they speak, but like Gunjack, which is not yet out, they need to be at the stage in development where release is assured.
You said the same thing to me about API support, in fact I remember it was something along the lines of "You couldn't do any better than we could". Thing is, I stopped relying on you [the CPM] and went and talked to CCP FoxFour directly and got a lot more accomplished than trying to handle up on the bureaucratic red tape that is the CPM. Might not have been a direct, "Yes, we can totally do this and we'll start working on it!" but I at least got an answer instead of being sidelined.
In fact, a -lot- of the answers I got to my questions and concerns were talking to CCP Developers directly instead of trying to work with you guys. Cross and Kevall are probably the best out of the bunch in that regard and hence why they were part of my vote.
So, my question now, is at what point are the CPM going to stop seemingly meandering around, trailing vagueness and subtlety all over the place and -actually ask the hard questions- that CCP doesn't seem to mind answering if they're simply asked? Are you guys -actually- asking those questions or are you just nodding your head and blindly appreciating any information you're given? Are you afraid to even ask those questions directly?
This, to me, is like when someone is trying to eat chips quietly and they're doing so very... very slowly and cautiously.... And you can't help but want to just scream at them to just get it over with and eat the chips.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.04 23:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:In case you're curious, Aeon, we've never had access to FoxFour as CPM1, and when I've asked for just some super simple API stuff for DUST outside of that, I was told it could not be done, but couldn't even get an answer as to why. Recently someone asked FoxFour about getting DUST Alerts workng again, and I offered to help host it or whatever if needbe, but didn't get a response. (This was all public forums and Twitter, FWIW.) And so, if you've had better luck contacting him, more power to you, but I don't really need your usual accusatory tone when I have, in fact, done my job.
Note: FoxFour has many other things on his plate, and we're not really his responsibility, so I am not blaming him for anything at all here. He's even helped DUST when he didn't have to. Just being clear, this is not a thing I ignored.
So then why did you never say that? Why instantly jump to "well you couldn't do a better job"? Why did the weekly CPM check-ins stop after February?
It's hard not to take an accusatory tone when there's no information exchange. All you had to do was say, "Yanno, we asked about this, we tried, here's what happened." but we don't get that, we get condescending responses and this persistent attitude:
Soraya Xel wrote:Aeon, I almost hope you get on the next CPM so you can eat your words as I ask you if you're really asking the hard questions or just coasting by on what you're given.
Am I expected to just have blind faith and believe that things are progressing and happening when we have no information to suggest that? No summit meeting minutes (if there even was a summit to begin with), no updates, and nothing to go on? No. I apologize if I come off as aggressive here, but I refuse to just blindly believe when I have nothing to go on. Especially when my abilities are being challenged.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.05 00:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:On a more serious and less snarky/condescending note, why don't we have another community crowdsourcing of ideas for FW like we did for PC? I think that some very constructive discussions took place AND we could involve the CSM, CPM, & players from BOTH games?
I had a thread going.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.05 01:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
DiablosMajora wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:DiablosMajora wrote:On a more serious and less snarky/condescending note, why don't we have another community crowdsourcing of ideas for FW like we did for PC? I think that some very constructive discussions took place AND we could involve the CSM, CPM, & players from BOTH games? I had a thread going. I'll toss a few ideas in the thread (no computer for optimal trello-ing atm), but we need to expand our proverbial reach if we want Dust to be taken seriously by CCP HQ. I don't think that's currently the case based on the new product pipeline nor by having both of Ratman's hands tied with resources. I feel that we need a dialogue with our EVE overlords in a constructive manner, both with the CSM and any of their players interested in FW. We don't need to start with firing upon one another and putting huge amounts of isk at risk, but starting with smaller things... donating to the ground-war effort to supply troops with gear (maybe FW only gear?), having EVE players decide on where we fight, something to increase our interaction in a natural way. Hell, use the current EVE FW mechanics of controlling an area to lock onto enemy vessels and have US put our damned orbital artillery to use, like a reverse orbital strike.
Let's just.... wait for a bit. Got a feeling we're about to make some headway here soon.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
12
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Posted - 2015.08.05 15:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Basically, what it comes down to, is CSMs and EVE devs mostly care about EVE players, much like CPMs and DUST devs mostly care about DUST players. The sweet spot of mutual interest will happen someday but that day isn't today. Talk to regular EVE players, that's going to get you much further than trying to convince CSM to take our wishes over those of their own community.
For those of you who are interested you can meet a lot of Eve players outside of the game through tweetfleet.slack.com. They even have a Dust 514 section to hash out ideas about Dust 514 over there but you can absolutely chat up the Eve players in your spare time. Lot of CCP Devs use Slack as well and while I don't recommend messaging them directly and pestering them you can, and probably should, try to hit them up with your questions related to what they do as a developer when they're in the public channels. Some members of the CSM are also in there and from the talks I've had, they do support Dust 514 but in the limited capacity that they are allowed since they can't push for features in a game that "isn't in their jurisdiction", if that makes any sense.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
|
Aeon Amadi
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
12
|
Posted - 2015.08.05 19:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Starlight Burner wrote: Do not understand how to join the website without creating a team. Elaborate on how to sign up please.
I honestly don't remember, it's been so long. I usually just type in 'tweetfleet' in the team domain and just log in.
Come to find out that you have to be invited by one of the moderators but you can do so through here if you have an Eve Account: https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/tweetfleet-slack-invites/
I'll talk to them about adding support for Dust 514 accounts, perhaps.
Soraya Xel wrote:Slack isn't really designed for public chatrooms. And I'm still not sure which hipsters were responsible for creating a Slack for EVE people. Just go on Skype, you get the same crud without the awful.
So you're going to attack the people that made the Tweetfleet Slack despite it having have 3,000+ users because you don't like it? That's like next level stupidity lol. And no, Skype is not nearly the same being as Slack is primarily browser based where everyone is allocated to a single team directory whereas Skype you have to know every person's username to get them in the same channel.
Further more, you have access to the CSM and Eve Online developers across multiple specified channels including #ArmchairDevelopers, #Lore, #Creatives, etc. Slack is fundamentally better for more widespread community communication whereas Skype is more for focused, specialized, and largely segregated think-tanks.
They are not nearly the same.
Aeon Amadi for CPM 2
Design A SKIN 2
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