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DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.08.02 10:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Why not just a Shield Recharge Tool?
i thought we couldnt have one because people would dual tank and get shield and armor repped at the same time and be invincible? |
DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.08.03 06:49:00 -
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Breakin Stuff wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Why not just a Shield Recharge Tool? i thought we couldnt have one because people would dual tank and get shield and armor repped at the same time and be invincible? When we say shield rep tool we aren't suggesting that said tool rep armor at all.
No I mean one guy with two separate logis. Each logi repping either shields or armor using either a shield repper or armor repper.
Cal assault with 600+ shields and 600+ armor for example. One logi would rep his shields, while the other reps his armor.
And what about dropsuit shield regen stacking with shield reps? Or the potential issue of a shield repper overriding shield delays and kick starting shield regen?
Those are issues that need to be addressed, yes?
I do have one idea that could solve those problems though. You can only be shield or armor repped, not both at the same time. Which ever repper is used first locks out the other type.
So you can use multiple shield reppers on the same guy, but you can't have two shield reppers and one armor repper activated on the same guy.
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DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.08.03 07:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Why not just a Shield Recharge Tool? i thought we couldnt have one because people would dual tank and get shield and armor repped at the same time and be invincible? How is that any different from being repped by 2 armor repair tools at the same time? HP per second is just HP per second.
It's not though. It's dropsuit shield regen + shield rep tool regen. And then also whatever armor reps are applied.
I can get dropsuit shield regen on cal assault over 100 hp/s already. And because of how shield mechanics work, if you applied a shield rep, you kick start shield regen. There wouldn't be a shield delay anymore, and you'd end up with 100 hp/s + whatever the shield repper gives you.
So either shield rep tool would have to be inferior to balance out dropsuit shield regen fits or it would risk being OP. |
DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.08.03 07:06:00 -
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The shield logi LAV reps were OP as hell when you got the reps on you.
The reason they weren't a problem was because of the vehicle handling and rep tool shared controls. You couldn't do both at the same time. The driver usually got killed or lost his lock try to stay alive. It was a clumsy design |
DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.08.03 10:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Why not just a Shield Recharge Tool? i thought we couldnt have one because people would dual tank and get shield and armor repped at the same time and be invincible? When we say shield rep tool we aren't suggesting that said tool rep armor at all. No I mean one guy with two separate logis. Each logi repping either shields or armor using either a shield repper or armor repper. Cal assault with 600+ shields and 600+ armor for example. One logi would rep his shields, while the other reps his armor. And what about dropsuit shield regen stacking with shield reps? Or the potential issue of a shield repper overriding shield delays and kick starting shield regen? Those are issues that need to be addressed, yes?
I do have one idea that could solve those problems though. You can only be shield or armor repped, not both at the same time. Which ever repper is used first locks out the other type. So you can use multiple shield reppers on the same guy, but you can't have two shield reppers and one armor repper activated on the same guy. There is absolutely no functional difference between a shield rep + armor rep and 2 armor reps. Except the shield rep is likely to do less hp/s
i get that.
im also saying that it would not be balanced to allow both shields and armor to be repped at the same time. |
DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.08.03 22:22:00 -
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Breakin Stuff wrote:Then make it so only one rep tool can affect a target at a time.
But that means you need to eliminate the ability to stack fire armor reps.
Either you can have multiple logi reps or you can't.
The ability to have multiple reps on armor has to be removed from the game in order for your statement to be valid.
Couldn't we limit rep use by type? Either way is fine, but what about being able to stack either shield reps or armor reps only but not both? |
DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.08.04 22:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Then make it so only one rep tool can affect a target at a time.
But that means you need to eliminate the ability to stack fire armor reps.
Either you can have multiple logi reps or you can't.
The ability to have multiple reps on armor has to be removed from the game in order for your statement to be valid. Couldn't we limit rep use by type? Either way is fine, but what about being able to stack either shield reps or armor reps only but not both? Because there's no functional, mid firefight difference between two shield reps, two armor reps or a shield plus an armor.. Saying there is kinda reminds me of people who argue that a law is illegal because it wasn't included in their nation's founding document. There is one difference, or possible difference depending the literal mechanics for the shield reps, the 1xarmor + 1xshield is likely to be the weakest combination in such situations because it cannot apply its full value simultaneously. At it's most potent possible iteration it will be, just as you say, no more powerful than things that exist in game already. I'm just noting that it could also be functionally weaker (repping the armor of someone who still has shields left is not providing direct impact on their status in the gunfight, it's only after those shields are gone that the armor reps start to matter in a fire fight).
I'm thinking of what would happen if this was allowed. Dual brick tanked cal and min assaults mostly because their shield regen would stack with the reps better. And also because there's minimal use of low slots to field total eHP, which means higher overall movement and sprint speeds. In the case of cal assault, they gain three plates and use shield reps to negate shield delays. I'll remind you that shield delays were introduced solely because hp stacking is discouraged.
The thing I'm not sure you guys are thinking of is that when speaking of rep hp/s, it's not simply hp/s. It's actually hp/s modified by damage profiles and resistances. A combat is -15/+15, and shields aren't an issue because 75% of dropsuits are shield based entirely. But when you look at projectiles as a whole and include their range, you'll see that they don't have enough damage to break shields. I'm talking about the +70m range where rail rifles are dominating. Projectiles lose too much damage even before -15% reduction.
How do you balance a shield rep anyways? If armor regen + rep tool tops out around 150hp/s, then we want shield total regen to be comparable right? That means a shield rep would need to give less than 50hp/s, to compensate for high dropsuits shield regen.
There's so many variables that would need to be looked at between weapon profile and resists, dropsuits native regen, shield mechanics and delays. Even a shield rep rate of 1 hp/s would remove the only real weakness of shield tanking.
But if you guys already thought through it all and still think it's ok. By all means, let's have a shield rep tool. |
DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.08.05 09:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Sequal's Back wrote:I just had a better idea than my previous one IMO:
Let's create a new variant of shield rechargers so no need of more SP to have it.
This shield recharger would have a 30 sec delay (no matter if it's basic or proto) and would automatically give 250/350/500 shield back (according to its tier) when your shield is depleted. The passive bonus of recharger would apply to bring these numbers a little higher.
So you could chose between faster recharge overtime, or a slow regen with a big tic available every 30 sec whenever your shield is depleted.
A good solution for duels, but maybe not that good for a hit and run slayer gameplay who gets hit constantly.
If you want both fast regen and instant regen, you'll have to sacrifice 2 highs which means less HP or damage.
Thoughts? I worry that this would basically be basically a huge shield extender that works every 30 seconds. I mean if it goes off when your shields deplete, that basically increases your total shield HP by whatever that boosted amount is right? Granted its not 'always on' like a shield extender but I do have some concerns in terms of balance. DeathwindRising wrote:
But if you guys already thought through it all and still think it's ok. By all means, let's have a shield rep tool.
No need to sound aggravated. As I said before (apologies, was on my phone and the boss came around so I had to cut it short), it might be worth exploring other options for external shield support that is not the traditional "lock on and rep" like we see with the repair tool. I know when Cross and I were speaking about it, one though of a more AoE effect that forcefully starts the shield regen of allies in the area of effect, kinda think like an active scanner but it starts shield recharge in the direction you fire it. Just food for thought. And while it's not a terribly good example, I experimented heavily with vehicle reps back when we had them and on several occasions attempted repping with both a Remote Armor Rep and a Shield Transporter simultaneously. The effect was fairly lackluster as I found most of the time it was more efficient to double up on the same type of rep than split between shields and armor. Now obviously that's a very very loose comparison but really the only practical example we can have in using both rep types simultaneously.
Well I wouldn't suggest that anyone try repair both shields and armor. I mean that I would be done in a three person scenario. One shield, one armor, and the guys getting the reps.
The idea sequal mentioned sounds similar to the shield pilon from mass effect 3. It was just this piece of equipment that would give a big boost of shield hp every few seconds to anyone near it and also jump start shield regen.
I'd love to see some shield support equipment |
DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.08.05 09:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sequal's Back wrote:Aderek wrote:Sequal's Back wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I worry that this would basically be a huge shield extender that works every 30 seconds. I mean if it goes off when your shields deplete, that basically increases your total shield HP by whatever that boosted amount is right? Granted its not 'always on' like a shield extender but I do have some concerns in terms of balance. And what if it reduces the regen by say 10/20/30% ? It'll be like using your regen all at once but then.. well.. you're screwed ! A lot can happen in 30 seconds of battle so I don't think this would OP. Look at vehicle shield boosters, they do exactly the same thing and are not OP ^^ And in Havs/lavs stil broken. If you turn on booster and some one shoot to you (ex. by rifle) boster stops.... Well that's another problem.. The instant shield recharger I'm talking about would be instant and unstoppable or it would be useless. It would really go alongside the shield mentality and would bring a nice concept to the shield vs armor meta.
You'd need to manipulate the threshold for the modules duration. Either with a temporary damage reduction or a temporarily raising the damage threshold so that the amount of damage taken during the modules duration is less that the damage threshold |
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