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Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.27 04:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think shields are still not in a good spot yet, despite the recent addition of a shield damage threshold. While that is certainly a big step in the right direction, we need to analyze what shields gain and lose compared to armorand equalize the two by bringing shield up to armor's level.
Shield Extenders vs. Armor Plates: Fitting
Let's compare a shield extender to an armor plate. Armor values will be in parentheses.
Health: 66 (135) CPU: 54 (37) PG 11 (12)
First off, the extender gives less than 50% of the health of the plate. This seems way off, but I don't think we need to increase this value much. What I have a problem with is that a plate is 68% the CPU cost of an extender while being only 9% more expensive PG wise than the extender. I think this represents a huge problem when it comes to balance. A shield suit pays 91% the PG cost of plates and gains less than half the health for it. This is not fair to the extender. I propose we lower extender PG usage by the same rate as plates CPU is lower than extender CPU, or ~68%, rounding to the nearest whole number. Old PG will be in parentheses and will be listed in STD, ADV, PRO order.
New extender PG usage: 2 (3), 4 (6), 8 (11)
Regeneration: Shields vs Reps
Next we look at shields main claim to fame: regen. Shields are supposed to be all about regen, but we have a problem; delays are too long. High regen doesn't count for much if it can be stopped, especially when an AR can stop the regen at ranges past 90m. Therefore, shield should rep more per second than armor does. Now currently is does rep more, but this is only self-reps. Armor has something that shield cannot access: rep tools and triage hives. This easily boosts armor reps past anything shields could possible get. Therefore, since shield has no external source of repair, let's allow it's self-repair cycle to start sooner. I created this spreadsheet detailing what I think would be good numbers. Some suits have 1-2 second reductions, some have 0.5 second reductions, some have no change at all. I did note that sentinel delays were out of whack with how other suits worked, so I left them alone for now.
Conclusion
There is more that could be done, But I believe we need to take small steps so that we don't trade one meta for another. Armor has its advantages and it should keep them, but we need to make shields a more viable option for mercs, and these two measures will be a boon to all suits, but especially to shield tankers who already struggle to perform as well as their armor brethren do.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
7
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Posted - 2015.07.27 05:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree on everything but the self repair cycle but I'm totally for a shield repair tool.
"The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited."
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
930
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Posted - 2015.07.27 05:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote: There is more that could be done, But I believe we need to take small steps so that we don't trade one meta for another. Armor has its advantages and it should keep them, but we need to make shields a more viable option for mercs, and these two measures will be a boon to all suits, but especially to shield tankers who already struggle to perform as well as their armor brethren do.
Agree with small steps.
On that note:
Rechargers and Energizers also need to be made better. Their CPU cost is absolutely insane and makes fittings very lopsided. In addition to that the jumps to ADV and Proto only give comparable +rep that armor repair module tier jumps give, which seems wrong since the energizers and rechargers have to deal with delay before they come into play. Tier jumps for shield regen modules should be more impactful.
Also the shield threshold needs to be increased some more (~15-20 would be a good next step value, I dont think 8 is having much impact against enemy fire, though I have noticed it a couple times while taking fall damage).
In addition for your shield regen delays proposal I actually think the Cal Commando needs to be brought in line with the Cal Sentinel, its incredibly weak regen is one of the main reasons that its a terrible suit. For a dropsuit whose whole role is long range skirmishing, it absolutely requires good shield regen numbers to make that work. Your other numbers look pretty neat, though the min assault might be getting too much of a buff there.
Edit to add: we should be hesitant to buff shields TOO much, since part of the reason armor meta is so strong is the equipment available for them. We need to leave room for improvement so that when any equipment comes into play to support shield dropsuits, they dont become absurdly OP. |
Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.27 05:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Agree with small steps. On that note: Rechargers and Energizers also need to be made better. Their CPU cost is absolutely insane and makes fittings very lopsided. In addition to that the jumps to ADV and Proto only give comparable +rep that armor repair module tier jumps give, which seems wrong since the energizers and rechargers have to deal with delay before they come into play. Tier jumps for shield regen modules should be more impactful. Also the shield threshold needs to be increased some more (~15-20 would be a good next step value, I dont think 8 is having much impact against enemy fire, though I have noticed it a couple times while taking fall damage). In addition for your shield regen delays proposal I actually think the Cal Commando needs to be brought in line with the Cal Sentinel, its incredibly weak regen is one of the main reasons that its a terrible suit. For a dropsuit whose whole role is long range skirmishing, it absolutely requires good shield regen numbers to make that work. Your other numbers look pretty neat, though the min assault might be getting too much of a buff there. I think the rechargers/energizers are fine for now, since they cost no PG at all, but that is something to look at tweaking if these changes don't help enough. I left them alone because like I said, small steps.
I hesitate to make the shield threshold that high since that would make shield nigh immune to Minmatar weaponry, especially at the lower tiers. The point of the threshold is to allow regen through fire from people that are way too out of range to actually kill you, like the aforementioned AR at 90m. He's not killing you but having that little damage reset your regen can be fatal. I would say up it to 10, but no higher, since any higher starts to have shields regen within the optimal of some weapons.
The Calmanndo has greater maneuverability than the sentinel, so I think the value is fine. The reason the sentinel has such good delays is because it can't rely on outside help to repair it's shield. Calmanndo has maneuverability (relative) to let it reposition or retreat. CalSentinel does not have that luxury. If any number needs to be tweaked in relation to commando/sentinel balance I think it would be raw regen. Commandos have less health, so they should regen just as fast as sentinels if not faster.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Karras Hearn
352 Industries
57
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Posted - 2015.07.27 05:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Finally someone who actually looks at how they are supposed to be different rather than just bitching about the numbers being lower. When you actually look at how they are supposed to function differently, you see that there isn't as big a gap as some people seem to think. IMO shields only need some minor tweaks to bring them up to the level of armor, and I think the changes you have proposed would do just that
Purveyor of the finest Officer weapons in the Cluster.
Chief Security Officer, 352 Industries
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Cat Merc
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
17
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Posted - 2015.07.27 08:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Every time someone compares HP values between plates and extenders in a vacuum, a puppy is blown up with a Plasma Cannon.
Assault Rifle damage is 34, HMG damage is 17.6, clearly the Assault Rifle is better.
AND THEN STEVE BUSCEMI SHOWS UP ON A FLYING PIG FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
752
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Posted - 2015.07.27 09:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
- treshold to 15 - PG/CPU cost of extenders decreased by A LOT. (compare them with ferros) - reg buff (25/35/50) - rechargers/energizers are fine IMO.
You can't fit anything on a ck.0 assault and that's mostly because of that insane extender's PG cost.
WON'T YOU PLEASE TAKE ME HOME !
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
932
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Posted - 2015.07.27 15:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think the rechargers/energizers are fine for now, since they cost no PG at all, but that is something to look at tweaking if these changes don't help enough. I left them alone because like I said, small steps.
Doesnt really matter what the PG is, if the CPU limits your fitting you can have half your PG remaining then you are still SOL in terms of fitting. And unlike PG heavy suits that can use the many PG light modules in the game (regulators, dampeners, precision) to round out their fit and gain utility, there are a grand total of zero CPU light modules in the game. This is one of the big imbalances in shield v. armor v. speed tanks, where the CPU heavy shield dropsuits havent got a reasonable way to fit their suits because of the heavy CPU requirements with no CPU light filler modules to choose from.
Alena Ventrallis wrote: I hesitate to make the shield threshold that high since that would make shield nigh immune to Minmatar weaponry, especially at the lower tiers. The point of the threshold is to allow regen through fire from people that are way too out of range to actually kill you, like the aforementioned AR at 90m. He's not killing you but having that little damage reset your regen can be fatal. I would say up it to 10, but no higher, since any higher starts to have shields regen within the optimal of some weapons.
The only weapons that ~15 damage threshold would affect are the assault SMG and default HMG, 20 would bring in the default SMG. I'd suggest raising the damage on both of them to give them the ability to break whatever threshold we end up with (+reduce fire rate or whatever you have to do to maintain dps). Its a pretty nasty problem though, as threshold rises to actually be useful weapons will need to be reworked to still be able to break the threshold. 8 damage is pretty useless though, and I dont think 10 is going to be much better, but heck Ill take whatever I can get.
Alena Ventrallis wrote: The Calmanndo has greater maneuverability than the sentinel, so I think the value is fine. The reason the sentinel has such good delays is because it can't rely on outside help to repair it's shield. Calmanndo has maneuverability (relative) to let it reposition or retreat. CalSentinel does not have that luxury. If any number needs to be tweaked in relation to commando/sentinel balance I think it would be raw regen. Commandos have less health, so they should regen just as fast as sentinels if not faster.
It doesnt matter much how the commando's maneuverability to the sentinel is, the problem with the Cal Commando is its maneuverability compared to scouts and assaults, which in comparison is nearly as abysmal as the sentinel's. It needs that regen for the same reason the sentinel does (but whatever, Ill be happy to wait and see how the latest changes to commandos work once out CCP gets off their ass and puts the weapon fitting bonus in before pushing this more) |
Jerome Kersey DVBKMGMT
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.07.27 15:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think the rechargers/energizers are fine for now, since they cost no PG at all, but that is something to look at tweaking if these changes don't help enough. I left them alone because like I said, small steps.
Doesnt really matter what the PG is, if the CPU limits your fitting you can have half your PG remaining then you are still SOL in terms of fitting. And unlike PG heavy suits that can use the many PG light modules in the game (regulators, dampeners, precision) to round out their fit and gain utility, there are a grand total of zero CPU light modules in the game. This is one of the big imbalances in shield v. armor v. speed tanks, where the CPU heavy shield dropsuits havent got a reasonable way to fit their suits because of the heavy CPU requirements with no CPU light filler modules to choose from. Alena Ventrallis wrote: I hesitate to make the shield threshold that high since that would make shield nigh immune to Minmatar weaponry, especially at the lower tiers. The point of the threshold is to allow regen through fire from people that are way too out of range to actually kill you, like the aforementioned AR at 90m. He's not killing you but having that little damage reset your regen can be fatal. I would say up it to 10, but no higher, since any higher starts to have shields regen within the optimal of some weapons.
The only weapons that ~15 damage threshold would affect are the assault SMG and default HMG, 20 would bring in the default SMG. I'd suggest raising the damage on both of them to give them the ability to break whatever threshold we end up with (+reduce fire rate or whatever you have to do to maintain dps). Its a pretty nasty problem though, as threshold rises to actually be useful weapons will need to be reworked to still be able to break the threshold. 8 damage is pretty useless though, and I dont think 10 is going to be much better, but heck Ill take whatever I can get. Alena Ventrallis wrote: The Calmanndo has greater maneuverability than the sentinel, so I think the value is fine. The reason the sentinel has such good delays is because it can't rely on outside help to repair it's shield. Calmanndo has maneuverability (relative) to let it reposition or retreat. CalSentinel does not have that luxury. If any number needs to be tweaked in relation to commando/sentinel balance I think it would be raw regen. Commandos have less health, so they should regen just as fast as sentinels if not faster.
It doesnt matter much how the commando's maneuverability to the sentinel is, the problem with the Cal Commando is its maneuverability compared to scouts and assaults, which in comparison is nearly as abysmal as the sentinel's. It needs that regen for the same reason the sentinel does (but whatever, Ill be happy to wait and see how the latest changes to commandos work once out CCP gets off their ass and puts the weapon fitting bonus in before pushing this more)
Don't you see this would break the game just stop crying.
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
932
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Posted - 2015.07.27 16:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jerome Kersey DVBKMGMT wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote: I think the rechargers/energizers are fine for now, since they cost no PG at all, but that is something to look at tweaking if these changes don't help enough. I left them alone because like I said, small steps.
Doesnt really matter what the PG is, if the CPU limits your fitting you can have half your PG remaining then you are still SOL in terms of fitting. And unlike PG heavy suits that can use the many PG light modules in the game (regulators, dampeners, precision) to round out their fit and gain utility, there are a grand total of zero CPU light modules in the game. This is one of the big imbalances in shield v. armor v. speed tanks, where the CPU heavy shield dropsuits havent got a reasonable way to fit their suits because of the heavy CPU requirements with no CPU light filler modules to choose from. Alena Ventrallis wrote: I hesitate to make the shield threshold that high since that would make shield nigh immune to Minmatar weaponry, especially at the lower tiers. The point of the threshold is to allow regen through fire from people that are way too out of range to actually kill you, like the aforementioned AR at 90m. He's not killing you but having that little damage reset your regen can be fatal. I would say up it to 10, but no higher, since any higher starts to have shields regen within the optimal of some weapons.
The only weapons that ~15 damage threshold would affect are the assault SMG and default HMG, 20 would bring in the default SMG. I'd suggest raising the damage on both of them to give them the ability to break whatever threshold we end up with (+reduce fire rate or whatever you have to do to maintain dps). Its a pretty nasty problem though, as threshold rises to actually be useful weapons will need to be reworked to still be able to break the threshold. 8 damage is pretty useless though, and I dont think 10 is going to be much better, but heck Ill take whatever I can get. Alena Ventrallis wrote: The Calmanndo has greater maneuverability than the sentinel, so I think the value is fine. The reason the sentinel has such good delays is because it can't rely on outside help to repair it's shield. Calmanndo has maneuverability (relative) to let it reposition or retreat. CalSentinel does not have that luxury. If any number needs to be tweaked in relation to commando/sentinel balance I think it would be raw regen. Commandos have less health, so they should regen just as fast as sentinels if not faster.
It doesnt matter much how the commando's maneuverability to the sentinel is, the problem with the Cal Commando is its maneuverability compared to scouts and assaults, which in comparison is nearly as abysmal as the sentinel's. It needs that regen for the same reason the sentinel does (but whatever, Ill be happy to wait and see how the latest changes to commandos work once out CCP gets off their ass and puts the weapon fitting bonus in before pushing this more) Don't you see this would break the game just stop crying.
Not sure why you think it would break the game, Cal Commando and shields in general are kinda suck right now. Meanwhile we have genuinely broken things like madruger rep/hardener combo and scrambler rifles and I dont see you bitching about them. |
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Carmine Lotte
Talon Havocs Evil Syndicate Alliance.
8
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Posted - 2015.07.27 16:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Removing the depleted Shield delay and giving all Caldari suits a +10 to Shield regen might help, everything else seems fine as far as I can tell. Off topic but something that might help is only allowing 1 scanner in EQ slots, we need time to start regen ex. I hid and run past a AScR Minass a scan failed, scan failed, Scanned he guns me before I start regen. |
Alena Ventrallis
Commando Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.07.27 16:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Every time someone compares HP values between plates and extenders in a vacuum, a puppy is blown up with a Plasma Cannon.
Assault Rifle damage is 34, HMG damage is 17.6, clearly the Assault Rifle is better. Did I not say I thought the health discrepancy wasn't the problem?
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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LUGMOS
Corrosive Synergy No Context
4
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Posted - 2015.07.27 17:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Every time someone compares HP values between plates and extenders in a vacuum, a puppy is blown up with a Plasma Cannon.
Assault Rifle damage is 34, HMG damage is 17.6, clearly the Assault Rifle is better. What do you suggesst then? Making reactive shielding and fortified shielding?
Fortified sort of like traditional armor plates, more hp with some sort of downside Our current shield extenders akin to ferroscales And reactive... Well, same idea as reactive plating. +a little shield and recharge
I am the Anti-FoTM
Fear my Cal Assault and Amarr Scout!
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