DUST Search - Comparing shields and armor: my take on it

Vesta Opalus wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

Agree with small steps.

On that note:

Rechargers and Energizers also need to be made better. Their CPU cost is absolutely insane and makes fittings very lopsided. In addition to that the jumps to ADV and Proto only give comparable +rep that armor repair module tier jumps give, which seems wrong since the energizers and rechargers have to deal with delay before they come into play. Tier jumps for shield regen modules should be more impactful.

Also the shield threshold needs to be increased some more (~15-20 would be a good next step value, I dont think 8 is having much impact against enemy fire, though I have noticed it a couple times while taking fall damage).

In addition for your shield regen delays proposal I actually think the Cal Commando needs to be brought in line with the Cal Sentinel, its incredibly weak regen is one of the main reasons that its a terrible suit. For a dropsuit whose whole role is long range skirmishing, it absolutely requires good shield regen numbers to make that work. Your other numbers look pretty neat, though the min assault might be getting too much of a buff there.


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Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.27 04:52:00 - [1] - Quote I think shields are still not in a good spot yet, despite the recent addition of a shield damage threshold. While that is certainly a big step in the right direction, we need to analyze what shields gain and lose compared to armorand equalize the two by bringing shield up to armor's level. Shield Extenders vs. Armor Plates: Fitting Let's compare a shield extender to an armor plate. Armor values will be in parentheses. Health: 66 (135) CPU: 54 (37) PG 11 (12) First off, the extender gives less than 50% of the health of the plate. This seems way off, but I don't think we need to increase this value much. What I have a problem with is that a plate is 68% the CPU cost of an extender while being only 9% more expensive PG wise than the extender. I think this represents a huge problem when it comes to balance. A shield suit pays 91% the PG cost of plates and gains less than half the health for it. This is not fair to the extender. I propose we lower extender PG usage by the same rate as plates CPU is lower than extender CPU, or ~68%, rounding to the nearest whole number. Old PG will be in parentheses and will be listed in STD, ADV, PRO order. New extender PG usage: 2 (3), 4 (6), 8 (11) Regeneration: Shields vs Reps Next we look at shields main claim to fame: regen. Shields are supposed to be all about regen, but we have a problem; delays are too long. High regen doesn't count for much if it can be stopped, especially when an AR can stop the regen at ranges past 90m. Therefore, shield should rep more per second than armor does. Now currently is does rep more, but this is only self-reps. Armor has something that shield cannot access: rep tools and triage hives. This easily boosts armor reps past anything shields could possible get. Therefore, since shield has no external source of repair, let's allow it's self-repair cycle to start sooner. I created this spreadsheet detailing what I think would be good numbers. Some suits have 1-2 second reductions, some have 0.5 second reductions, some have no change at all. I did note that sentinel delays were out of whack with how other suits worked, so I left them alone for now. Conclusion There is more that could be done, But I believe we need to take small steps so that we don't trade one meta for another. Armor has its advantages and it should keep them, but we need to make shields a more viable option for mercs, and these two measures will be a boon to all suits, but especially to shield tankers who already struggle to perform as well as their armor brethren do. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.27 05:39:00 - [2] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Agree with small steps. On that note: Rechargers and Energizers also need to be made better. Their CPU cost is absolutely insane and makes fittings very lopsided. In addition to that the jumps to ADV and Proto only give comparable +rep that armor repair module tier jumps give, which seems wrong since the energizers and rechargers have to deal with delay before they come into play. Tier jumps for shield regen modules should be more impactful. Also the shield threshold needs to be increased some more (~15-20 would be a good next step value, I dont think 8 is having much impact against enemy fire, though I have noticed it a couple times while taking fall damage). In addition for your shield regen delays proposal I actually think the Cal Commando needs to be brought in line with the Cal Sentinel, its incredibly weak regen is one of the main reasons that its a terrible suit. For a dropsuit whose whole role is long range skirmishing, it absolutely requires good shield regen numbers to make that work. Your other numbers look pretty neat, though the min assault might be getting too much of a buff there. I think the rechargers/energizers are fine for now, since they cost no PG at all, but that is something to look at tweaking if these changes don't help enough. I left them alone because like I said, small steps. I hesitate to make the shield threshold that high since that would make shield nigh immune to Minmatar weaponry, especially at the lower tiers. The point of the threshold is to allow regen through fire from people that are way too out of range to actually kill you, like the aforementioned AR at 90m. He's not killing you but having that little damage reset your regen can be fatal. I would say up it to 10, but no higher, since any higher starts to have shields regen within the optimal of some weapons. The Calmanndo has greater maneuverability than the sentinel, so I think the value is fine. The reason the sentinel has such good delays is because it can't rely on outside help to repair it's shield. Calmanndo has maneuverability (relative) to let it reposition or retreat. CalSentinel does not have that luxury. If any number needs to be tweaked in relation to commando/sentinel balance I think it would be raw regen. Commandos have less health, so they should regen just as fast as sentinels if not faster. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.27 16:41:00 - [3] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Every time someone compares HP values between plates and extenders in a vacuum, a puppy is blown up with a Plasma Cannon. Assault Rifle damage is 34, HMG damage is 17.6, clearly the Assault Rifle is better. Did I not say I thought the health discrepancy wasn't the problem? Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.