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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 10:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I've been thinking about what might happen if assaults were allowed two light weapons.
I don't believe at this point it would marginalize commandos.
But it would break vehicle combat in half over it's knee. Even with super-hardened madrugars.
Between the number of mainline killers running assault or the unscrewed commandos, most of any given combat force could simply instantly focus down an HAV or dropship.
There would be no sacrificing utility to be powerful versus all enemies on the field. Currently...
THIS IS PURE OPINION...
I think that commandos are on par with assaults. Or the parity will fully exist once the gallente and caldari have better assault bonuses. The calmando still is kinda iffy but one step at a time.
This isn't the post where I give a long-winded diatribe on how I think I want it. I'm curious to see what solutions you come up with.
I will, for this post mostly be playing Devil's Advocate on behalf of vehicles. I'm reserving the next post slot to list interesting or solid solutions.
This is mostly to see if viable results can be found, and I will be ignoring posts that make blanket statements without constructive comment.
Interested?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 10:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 11:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
no more rock, paper, scissors?
assaults do it all at once?
gallente assault with AR + shotgun
cal assault with RR + sniper rifle
amarr assault... the ScR AND the laser rifle lol?
minmatar assault with Cr + mass driver
itd be basically commandos... but faster and with smaller hit boxes and more module slots. also, they'd have grenades lmao.
why should i continue using a commando at that point? |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 11:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:no more rock, paper, scissors?
assaults do it all at once?
gallente assault with AR + shotgun
cal assault with RR + sniper rifle
amarr assault... the ScR AND the laser rifle lol?
minmatar assault with Cr + mass driver
itd be basically commandos... but faster and with smaller hit boxes and more module slots. also, they'd have grenades lmao.
why should i continue using a commando at that point?
Not on topic. Please re-read the question.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 11:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yeah, I'm not sure Assaults with two light weapons is healthy. I do think it would marginalise the Commando role: Assaults are more common than Commandos, and that's reasonable. One of the biggest reasons people run Commandos is to run Light+AV; giving Assaults that flexibility would basically make Commandos pointless - they'd be slower, roughly as much HP, less flexible slots, 'worse' (maybe, depends on intention) role bonuses and a much bigger hit box.
Essentially, an Assault with two Lights is Commando+. Aside from the MinCom's stupidly good combination of guns/bonuses, and the others for specific circumstances (CalCom snipers, for example) there'd be little reason to use a Commando at all.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
488
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Posted - 2015.07.24 12:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
If I remembers correctly Assault with two L slots were mentioned in Project Legion(with Heavy's that can not hack and no Commandos at all). I wouldn't mind if that would happen because it would require significant boost to HP of Light suits and maybe L and S slots to every Logi suit.
G Speed Scout. MM Logi/Assault.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
12
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Posted - 2015.07.24 14:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't see how Assaults (in their present form) could get away with 2 light weapons without creating imbalance. Are they not already the best all-around killers in the game?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 14:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:no more rock, paper, scissors?
assaults do it all at once?
gallente assault with AR + shotgun
cal assault with RR + sniper rifle
amarr assault... the ScR AND the laser rifle lol?
minmatar assault with Cr + mass driver
itd be basically commandos... but faster and with smaller hit boxes and more module slots. also, they'd have grenades lmao.
why should i continue using a commando at that point? Not on topic. Please re-read the question.
what question lol?
your post was a statement followed by asking if anyone was interested.
ask a question and then maybe we can answer it
EDIT: pretty sure CCP said that under no circumstance would we ever give assaults two light weapons. i think it was Frame who said it actually, but i could be wrong. maybe ask CCP what they think about it. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 14:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Question would be how would two dual weapon classes be balanced vs vehicles without turning that entirely into a poinless sh*tshow.
I'm only dinking around with one variable at a time. This is the variable. It's the one that has to be addressed or worrying about niche protection concerns are pointless to worry about.
Plus sidearms in general (besides very specific examples) are about as effective as light weapons at killing in their ranges, so swapping to a light weapon isn't going to break that much if at all.
But since I am poking at single variables, would there be a not-idiotic way to balance having every commando and assault potentially packing a backup AV weapon?
I have an idea but I dislike it. I don't feel it would add much to regular play.
To clarify this is me doing a speculative mental exercise, not something I want to really push hard for. I like putzing around with variables to see how things fit together.
So if there is no good answer to the question I'm not going to get spastic. I'll retain it as a reminder for the next time someone claims assaults with two lights are good to go.
It happens once every two to three months.
I have no particular emotional investment in making this happen. I'm just curious about the concept and want to dissect it.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 15:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:I don't see how Assaults (in their present form) could get away with 2 light weapons without creating imbalance. Are they not already the best all-around killers in the game?
No. Just the most popular.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 15:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:But since I am poking at single variables, would there be a not-idiotic way to balance having every commando and assault potentially packing a backup AV weapon?.
Not that I can see.
Assaults with two lights essentially invalidates the Commando role and introduces enormously more AV into the field making vehicles into WP pin+útas.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
12
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Posted - 2015.07.24 15:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:I don't see how Assaults (in their present form) could get away with 2 light weapons without creating imbalance. Are they not already the best all-around killers in the game?
No. Just the most popular.
Is that an opinion or is that a fact? I ask because dropsuit usage rates have always pointed to whatever is best at killing.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 15:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:But since I am poking at single variables, would there be a not-idiotic way to balance having every commando and assault potentially packing a backup AV weapon?. Not that I can see. Assaults with two lights essentially invalidates the Commando role and introduces enormously more AV into the field making vehicles into WP pin+útas.
I tend to think of them as more "light and heavy infantry" with variations along similar thematic lines. Bluntly I tend to ignore the "Commando" naming connotations because I don't ascribe the definition hollywood and video games assign to the word.
In my magical dream castle fantasy world full of pixies and rainbows I'd see the Commandos take over the sentinel's CQC role without invalidating the assaults in said quarters while Sentinels do their thing providing fire support from behind/flanking assault and commando ops. But that's more my ideal. YMMV.
I just dislike the meta that makes a sentinel the win button inside enclosed areas. But now I'm rolling off-topic.
Bluntly the only way I can see the twin weapon thing with an AV option being to reduce the light AV weapons efficacy versus vehicles. I.E. something like 30% vs. HAVs, 60% vs. Dropships, etc. Not necessarily those numbers but you get the idea.
I think it's kinda dumb. So I'm not really considering it hard. More interested if someone might come up with an angle I hadn't thought of. Hell even crap ideas around the forums have a lot of interesting tidbits that could be refined into real concepts, not always related to the original topic of interest.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Kierkegaard Soren
Eridani Light Horse Battalion
871
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Posted - 2015.07.24 16:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Every way I think about it I just come back to the feeling that giving assaults two lights will make them Commando Lites, with no distinctive role of their own without encroaching heavily into the commando territory. And Lord knows, that suit has struggled with that particular issue since its inception and only know is coming into its own as a flexible weapons platform.
BUT.
If we were to consider implementing this, why not kill two birds with one stone and give the two light weapons to the Basic Medium frames? They have no skill bonuses currently, but with the recent addition of the extra equipment slot we could build them up to the true generalist suit that can handle any situation without becoming superior to either assault or commando. It'd also be a sizeable buff for the newbro part of community too; Basic frames are easy to skill into.
Dedicated Commando.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
10
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Posted - 2015.07.24 16:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:Every way I think about it I just come back to the feeling that giving assaults two lights will make them Commando Lites, with no distinctive role of their own without encroaching heavily into the commando territory. And Lord knows, that suit has struggled with that particular issue since its inception and only know is coming into its own as a flexible weapons platform.
BUT.
If we were to consider implementing this, why not kill two birds with one stone and give the two light weapons to the Basic Medium frames? They have no skill bonuses currently, but with the recent addition of the extra equipment slot we could build them up to the true generalist suit that can handle any situation without becoming superior to either assault or commando. It'd also be a sizeable buff for the newbro part of community too; Basic frames are easy to skill into.
Yeah but losing the ability to carry two upon going assault would be frustrating as hell.
Like I said though, I intend this post for pure speculation. I have no plans or intention to push this as a development/balance agenda
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 23:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
assaults can run two light weapons right now. weapon of choice + Black eagle AR. but the black eagle isn't in the market and is just a std rifle.
game imbalance would go far beyond just AV. The only reason left for running a commando is maybe Hp. zero need for a sidearm on assaults. any racial drawbacks can be easily overcome by fitting another races weapon. shotgun would be king of cqc.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
vote Tesfa for CPM2
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1
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Posted - 2015.07.24 23:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Part of being a tanker is about managing your incoming damage.
We normally would just drive around and avoid AV. But if everyone has AV, then it possible that a tank would come under non stop fire, from all angles.
If there is no where a vehicle can go to avoid taking damage, then vehicles would need to be able to take sustained damage for extended periods of time.
Of course one option is to remove light AV weapons and make them a different weapon class or something.
You could also try to do it by increasing AV fitting costs to cloaking device levels and then give commandos a fitting bonus that allows them to fit them.
At least then assaults could have two light weapons, without the overall number of AV weapons going up. |
Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1
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Posted - 2015.07.25 22:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
2 suggestions.
1)2 light weapons but unable to equip AV class weapons.
Assaults would be for anti infantry,Commandos for AV.
-or-
2) Sidearm rifles,like the black eagle. Assault exclusive.
But they are only as good as basic level.
Standard models,no burst,breach,etc.
So an assault can have a high AV weapon but would suffer vs infantry.
As for commandos:100% magazine/carry capacity
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Krias Thracian
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
68
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Posted - 2015.07.25 23:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Your principle variable of balance against AV is tough. Where you bring assaults to the potential of having a backup AV weapon, I think the problem multiplies. Without imposing balance by nerfing AV weapons, I can't see an easy way of balancing it in a fair way that isn't arbitrary.
Any balance would then almost require larger amounts of AV to take down a vehicle and lead to its own problems insofar as ambushing of said AV users and problems of having appropriate numbers on either side that vehicles don't dominate or autolose, the first part isn't much of an issue now, but the latter I have seen happen on many occasions depending on maps and other factors and I think by moving in that direction there is a real risk that vehicles just become binary: They either win hard or lose hard. No middle ground.
Part of the problem at the moment for vehicles is that a concentrated assault on a vehicle will take it down so they have an aspect of binary about them at the moment. I'm going to wander slightly off-topic and suggest that 3/4/5 people with AV should take down an unassisted tank. The problem for me is that aside from damage, there is no way to really support a vehicle. I'd quite like to see equipment that can be purposed into supporting a vehicle, something like chaff/decoy that draws off some swarms, equipment that partially disperses a plasma/forgegun shot.
You have logistics to support your infantry, for me the balance shouldn't be directly between vehicles and infantry as numbers will kill vehicle and vehicle will kill individuals/poorly equipped numbers as it should be. But with some kind of support class (perhaps pilot suits get bonuses to supporting vehicle equipment?) you don't need to either buff a vehicle/nerf a weapon, there's a gradiated method where tactical play and teamwork can be the deciding factor.
Apologies for straying a little off-topic on this. |
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