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Lex DOCIEL wrote:

Here are some ideas about my favorite weapon, the Nova knives. We do not need nova swords, or clubs (wtf, plasma charged clubs, really?), or balistic knives, other COD BS. We need fixed nova knives.

Some of these ideas are necessary, some are secondary. But most are important to make the novas viable again, when used as a primary weapon (Minmatar scouts) with the most recent Dust changes, and fun as well to play with:

NECESSARY

1 - Reduce the time needed to decloak, when the nova knives are set as primary (or as only) equipped weapon. (those precious seconds got us killed too many times).

As Minmatars:
> we are scanned more easily than any other scouts (no passive + low slots are for run speed/stamina, ferroscal to tank a little most of the time, or hacking mods to scale with passive)
> to use the novas as primary is the best way to fit properly our dropsuit and take advantage of its unusual, but awesome,passives.

To those who will argue the shotgun should enjoy this decloak time reduction as well. Please realize that the shotgun is a close range weapon and have no charge time (and have the Bons as ultimate two-shot weapon), when the nova is a hand-to-hand weapon, with a charge time, with a screen view to see our surroundings (yes, it does make a huge difference: if the enemy strafe 1 meter left, he gets out of sight and reach when you use a knife, but is still in sight AND in range when using a shotgun)

*A related minmatar dropsuit skill passive would not do the trick, as everyone would fit second-hand nova knives to take advantage of the bonus, without actually using the knives, and would end up being unbalanced. On the other hand, I would be ok with another nova or cloack T2 skill, let's say "Nova Knife energy recalibration", decreasing the decloack time only when used in combo with Nova Knives fitted in a light weapon slot.

2 - add officer and rare proto variants for a better damage output
It is now necessary to cut through the toughest heavies. Either way, they have plenty enough time to turn on us and HMG our butt 10 times (or just punch our nose to death). Plus, the dropsuit profile being our weakness, more often that not, the enemy is already aware of our presence. So it is a run, cut and pray tactic. And if we have to cut twice, we die.

SECONDARY

1 - rework the movement design (the first swing is nice, the second is like... does that just happened?)
2 - add a different design for every faction

My 2 slices of advice,

Lex

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Lex DOCIEL What Two French 61	Posted - 2015.07.21 09:51:00 - [1] - Quote Here are some ideas about my favorite weapon, the Nova knives. We do not need nova swords, or clubs (wtf, plasma charged clubs, really?), or balistic knives, other COD BS. We need fixed nova knives. Some of these ideas are necessary, some are secondary. But most are important to make the novas viable again, when used as a primary weapon (Minmatar scouts) with the most recent Dust changes, and fun as well to play with: NECESSARY 1 - Reduce the time needed to decloak, when the nova knives are set as primary (or as only) equipped weapon. (those precious seconds got us killed too many times). As Minmatars, we got scanned more easily than any other scouts (no passive + low slots are for run speed/stamina, ferroscal to tank a little most of the time, or hacking mods to scale with passive), and to use the novas as primary is the best way to fit properly this dropsuit and take advantage of the unusual, but awesome, Minmatar scout passives. A related nova, or minmatar dropsuit, skill passive would not do the trick, as everyone would fit second-hand nova knives to take advantage of the bonus, without actually using the knives, and would end up being unbalanced. 2 - add officer and rare proto variants for a better damage output* It is now necessary to cut through the toughest heavies. Either way, they have plenty enough time to turn on us and HMG our butt 10 times (or just punch our nose to death). Plus, the dropsuit profile being our weakness, more often that not, the enemy is already aware of our presence. So it is a run, cut and pray tactic. And if we have to cut twice, we die. SECONDARY 1 - rework the movement design (the first swing is nice, the second is like... does that just happened?) 2 - add a variant design for every faction My 2 slices of advice, Lex Proud player of the most strategic and addictive massively-multiplayer FPS in the world.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.21 11:58:00 - [2] - Quote too much of your changes are based on your playstyle than anything witb the suit. If you refuse to fit damps then your going to get scanned. if decloaked timer is getting you killed you are certainly doing it wrong. either you have already been spotted, or you are so close that the enemy hears you decloak. There is no one fit for all circumstances. If you want to speed tank, you can. speed hack, you can. shadow minja you can. proto knives on a minja can one hit kill all but the most tanked heavies, and there got to be some drawbacks to that. being a minja isn't easy, but it sure isn't as hard as a lot of starting minjas think it is. respected and fine as it is. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati vote Tesfa for CPM2
Lex DOCIEL What Two French 61	Posted - 2015.07.21 14:13:00 - [3] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: too much of your changes are based on your playstyle than anything witb the suit. If you refuse to fit damps then your going to get scanned. Concerning scans, only gallente scouts with full proto dampeners can go under a proto gallente logi scanner peacefully. Because both passive and low power slots are needed to do so. So you cannot play a compelte furtive Minja, you always end up being scanned anyway. Tesfa Alem wrote: if decloaked timer is getting you killed you are certainly doing it wrong. either you have already been spotted, or you are so close that the enemy hears you decloak. I was playing novas before the cloak was even thought about. I know my way around not to be spotted, at least by my target. To be efficient, you need to decloak and attack in the same course of action, while getting from close range to hand-to-hand range. If we are heard by the decloak at that moment, which can occur, its delay gives the split second needed by the target to be aware of our presence and start moving/turning/firing. Add to that a split second of charging the blade and releasing, and you will understand that a lot can happen during that time. When the cloak got into the game, without any decloack delay, nova knives were efficient and balanced. But I agree however that shotguns, remote, etc, were not. Remember than most Nova attacks must be done while leaping forward, to charge the blades during the jump. if the target reaction is helped by the decloak sound, the 1 second delay before our attack allows it to strafe on the side. Which results in a miss, and a stupid death. These are the drawbacks I talked about sooner. Tesfa Alem wrote: There is no one fit for all circumstances. If you want to speed tank, you can. speed hack, you can. shadow minja you can. proto knives on a minja can one hit kill all but the most tanked heavies, and there got to be some drawbacks to that. We agree on that. The thing is, to be efficient with nova, you need the speed, so you cannot have the low scan profile required to get close to your target at high level. Or if you get the dampeners, you lose the speed necessary... to get close to your target at high level. Neither shotgun, or any other weapon, suffer from this issue. Tesfa Alem wrote: being a minja isn't easy, but it sure isn't as hard as a lot of starting minjas think it is. respected and fine as it is. No. Just no. Militia nova = better use melee attack Advanced nova = getting interesting, but charging time is still to long Proto nova = only viable option Starting Minja? Without passives up (and I am talking of novas, scount minma AND passive radar AND cinetic catalyzer) and a proto nova, you have no chance of doing any good job if you use it as primary weapons. And I am not talking about fitting a cloak. Remember the focus of the topic, is to use the novas as primary weapons, on a scout minmatar, as a positive alternative during high level battles. Proud player of the most strategic and addictive massively-multiplayer FPS in the world.
CROW and Cardinal SINISTER DEVELOPMENTS 4	Posted - 2015.07.21 21:41:00 - [4] - Quote Hmm. Both of you present fair points. Before the cloaks came along, learning how to remain unseen by enemies while still keeping them completely visible was a goal. When I play with my scout, I have a Combat Rifle and Nova Knives to work with. It's a fairly general purpose scout suit too. Personally though, I don't have any noticeable problems with the current state of the Nova Knives; Relying on getting close, de-cloaking, and pulling out the knives as quickly as possible probably isn't a very healthy habit. So why not use that stealth knowledge you boast about, don't use the cloak in that situation, or de-cloak before getting too close. Of course, looking at you say that scouts 'have to have' this and that, it makes me feel that I'm not doing things very well. I don't use anything to increase my speed, and I make sure to fit a dampener and a precision enhancer on all of my loadouts. I fit a cloak, and nothing else as equipment unless my fireteam leader requests, and I rely on stalking and ambushing my target before making any moves. Perhaps I'll wait until he runs into my teammate thirty meters NE, and take him out when his shields are down. Or, wait until he stops to hack a turret installation. Oh, or maybe I should tail him into that copse of buildings and ambush him as he rounds the corner... There are endless ways to play the game man, working out how you do it with what you've got is a part of playing. The only reason that cloaks have that debuff to draw speed is because of scouts abusing the draw speed in the first place. I doubt anyone wants a repeat of that. P.S. That bit about the proto variant Nova being the only viable option? Untrue, I use the Adv. variant and still get the job done. Engulfed in darkness and set ablaze, the light will never permeate your intangible cage. -Crow & Cardinal
tffvbhb Pile 'em Up 18	Posted - 2015.07.21 23:27:00 - [5] - Quote Lex DOCIEL wrote: Here are some ideas about my favorite weapon, the Nova knives. We do not need nova swords, or clubs (wtf, plasma charged clubs, really?), or balistic knives, other COD BS. We need fixed nova knives. Some of these ideas are necessary, some are secondary. But most are important to make the novas viable again, when used as a primary weapon (Minmatar scouts) with the most recent Dust changes, and fun as well to play with: NECESSARY 1 - Reduce the time needed to decloak, when the nova knives are set as primary (or as only) equipped weapon. (those precious seconds got us killed too many times). As Minmatars: > we are scanned more easily than any other scouts (no passive + low slots are for run speed/stamina, ferroscal to tank a little most of the time, or hacking mods to scale with passive) > to use the novas as primary is the best way to fit properly our dropsuit and take advantage of its unusual, but awesome,passives. To those who will argue the shotgun should enjoy this decloak time reduction as well. Please realize that the shotgun is a close range weapon and have no charge time (and have the Bons as ultimate two-shot weapon), when the nova is a hand-to-hand weapon, with a charge time, with a screen view to see our surroundings (yes, it does make a huge difference: if the enemy strafe 1 meter left, he gets out of sight and reach when you use a knife, but is still in sight AND in range when using a shotgun) A related minmatar dropsuit skill passive would not do the trick, as everyone would fit second-hand nova knives to take advantage of the bonus, without actually using the knives, and would end up being unbalanced. On the other hand, I would be ok with another nova or cloack T2 skill, let's say "Nova Knife energy recalibration", decreasing the decloack time only when used in combo with Nova Knives fitted in a light weapon slot. 2 - add officer and rare proto variants for a better damage output* It is now necessary to cut through the toughest heavies. Either way, they have plenty enough time to turn on us and HMG our butt 10 times (or just punch our nose to death). Plus, the dropsuit profile being our weakness, more often that not, the enemy is already aware of our presence. So it is a run, cut and pray tactic. And if we have to cut twice, we die. SECONDARY 1 - rework the movement design (the first swing is nice, the second is like... does that just happened?) 2 - add a different design for every faction My 2 slices of advice, Lex I don't have a problem will cutting people up I think you are to reliant on the cloak I only use mine to escape, hack something, or climb ladders. If you get the kn proficiency and min scout basic kn should be enough to kill most people
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.22 03:08:00 - [6] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: If you refuse to fit damps then your going to get scanned. An Assault or Logi running 1 precision enhancer will scan any MinScout, even one running straight damps. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
BLOOD Ruler Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.07.22 04:10:00 - [7] - Quote I agree with everything except no Nova Sword, whom do you think you are sir and how dare you go against the plasma charged clubs. Shame on you, for shame. Where are my Amarrian Nova knife and Broadsword!!! No Escaping Reason, No Denying Purpose For We Know Without Purpose We World Not Exist The Purpose Of Life Is To End
DeadlyAztec11 Defenders of the Helghast Dream 8	Posted - 2015.07.22 07:36:00 - [8] - Quote There are already Officer Nova Knives. Do Nova Knives really need a buff? I'm using them to devastating effect on my Gallente Assault. Mostly against scouts. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Lex DOCIEL What Two French 66	Posted - 2015.07.22 07:45:00 - [9] - Quote CROW and Cardinal wrote: When I play with my scout, I have a Combat Rifle and Nova Knives to work with. It's a fairly general purpose scout suit too. You make fair points as well. But I am narrowing to a specific dropsuit-weapon fit, for the Minja to be viable, as it is the only melee fit of its kind in Dust. Try with nova knives as primary weapon for the coming week. CROW and Cardinal wrote: Of course, looking at you say that scouts 'have to have' this and that, it makes me feel that I'm not doing things very well. I do not. Going Minmatar scout the way you do (combat / nova) is the APEX style, which is considered as the main trend for the race. What I am demanding are specific changes to allow Minja style to be up for the challenge of the game and to be able to fit at last in a broader range of close-quarter situations (rather than only sneaking behind turret operators and hackers, I can do that with a remote or a locus core, which is way funnier). CROW and Cardinal wrote: There are endless ways to play the game man, working out how you do it with what you've got is a part of playing. The only reason that cloaks have that debuff to draw speed is because of scouts abusing the draw speed in the first place. I doubt anyone wants a repeat of that. Indeed, this is why I defend a specific nova-as-1st-weap-cloack synergy only, and based on specific related skills. Dust is supposed to give us an opportunity to play the game our way. Going Minja is mine. I just ask to have my share of the cake. :) CROW and Cardinal wrote: P.S. That bit about the proto variant Nova being the only viable option? Untrue, I use the Adv. variant and still get the job done. Yesterday, I jumped onto a commando advanced who spotted me, I land part of the strike and down him to a few dozen armor point, and got killed. This makes sense, because he spotted me. But he spotted me because I had to decloack way before that I would like to. I ended up killing him while he was operating a turret... Which is a lame death, and he now must hate nova users for that! Because this does not reward my skill, it rewards my sneakiness and his lack of environment awareness (but as commando, he does not have much of a chance). This situation just sucks for everyone. If I had a proper decloack time and/or an officer nova (rather than my protos), he would have died, but he would have a chance to get me and it would have been a fair fight for everyone. And he I have used lower level nova, result is 100% in his favor. I could do a bit more damage with a sidearm weapon upgrade, but I cannot fit it because I fit shields, because I cannot fit armors, because I have to run dampeners and kinetic catalizer. Trust me, my feedback and my points are fair. I want to OP decloak. I want a good synergy allowing Minja to be viable even if they make one error. All other dropsuits have this chance, we do not. Proud player of the most strategic and addictive massively-multiplayer FPS in the world.
Lex DOCIEL What Two French 66	Posted - 2015.07.22 07:59:00 - [10] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: There are already Officer Nova Knives. So I was not lucky enough yet to loot some... Can you give me their name? I will look to buy them on the market. This could indeed solved already some issues. DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Do Nova Knives really need a buff? I'm using them to devastating effect on my Gallente Assault. Mostly against scouts. Nova knives DO NOT need a buff. They need officer version, but you are telling me they already existe (which is a great news to me). Ideally, my main point would be to give them a specific synergy with decloack when they are equipped as primary weapon, reducing the decloak time. That is all I ask for. Proud player of the most strategic and addictive massively-multiplayer FPS in the world.

tffvbhb Pile 'em Up 20	Posted - 2015.07.22 14:52:00 - [11] - Quote Lex DOCIEL wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: There are already Officer Nova Knives. So I was not lucky enough yet to loot some... Can you give me their name? I will look to buy them on the market. This could indeed solved already some issues. DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Do Nova Knives really need a buff? I'm using them to devastating effect on my Gallente Assault. Mostly against scouts. Nova knives DO NOT need a buff. They need officer version, but you are telling me they already existe (which is a great news to me). Ideally, my main point would be to give them a specific synergy with decloack when they are equipped as primary weapon, reducing the decloak time. That is all I ask for. With officer kn I can get up to 996 damage per swing (with charge)
CROW and Cardinal SINISTER DEVELOPMENTS 6	Posted - 2015.07.22 17:31:00 - [12] - Quote (For once, this contains no sarcasm...) Well Lex, based on what your saying, I'll give you a little advice. This thread could have been much more productive if you had reached out to other Minmatar scout users and asked their opinion on the suit's passive bonuses. Then, once you've gotten some feedback, you suggest a change in the suit's passive bonus to the same one your trying to press on as an additional bonus. So, Minmatar scouts would have a bonus to draw time when drawing their sidearms while cloaked. The way you present your ideas is important, so it's much more effective to draw the crowd and harness their attentions for your own uses. Unfortunately, the way you've presented your idea makes it seem like all you want is a new bonus for your own preferences. This makes the thread behave like it is currently, with people telling you how good they are with a suit type you seem to be struggling with. In fact, the only useful thing in this thread is that there are in fact officer variant Novas... Engulfed in darkness and set ablaze, the light will never permeate your intangible cage. -Crow & Cardinal
Lex DOCIEL What Two French 67	Posted - 2015.07.22 19:27:00 - [13] - Quote CROW and Cardinal wrote: (For once, this contains no sarcasm...) Well Lex, based on what your saying, I'll give you a little advice. This thread could have been much more productive if you had reached out to other Minmatar scout users and asked their opinion on the suit's passive bonuses. Then, once you've gotten some feedback, you suggest a change in the suit's passive bonus to the same one your trying to press on as an additional bonus. So, Minmatar scouts would have a bonus to draw time when drawing their sidearms while cloaked. The way you present your ideas is important, so it's much more effective to draw the crowd and harness their attentions for your own uses. Unfortunately, the way you've presented your idea makes it seem like all you want is a new bonus for your own preferences. This makes the thread behave like it is currently, with people telling you how good they are with a suit type you seem to be struggling with. In fact, the only useful thing in this thread is that there are in fact officer variant Novas... You are correct about the turn of the subject. Gathering more people to think about this idea could help. On the other hand, the Minja scout community only using novas as main weapons are not that big, and pushing the things the way I do is also to provoke reaction. You have to admit that it works (somehow). :) Concerning the dropsuit passive changes, I think it is good the way it is. Plus implementing a third passive effect to the dropsuit skill will start a war against every other scout players using different race dropsuits. I also took this into account when proposing a specific passive for novas or cloak. Which every race or dropsuit class could take advantage of. When you think about it, it is actually a minor change that would only impact the life of players who are primarily relying on nova knives to get rid of the enemy. Proud player of the most strategic and addictive massively-multiplayer FPS in the world.
CROW and Cardinal SINISTER DEVELOPMENTS 7	Posted - 2015.07.22 21:35:00 - [14] - Quote Mm, glad my facetious comments can help. Or, wait... that wasn't supposed to be facetious... Oh, well. Anywho, I've been paying as a Minmatar scout using only the Nova knives as a weapon. I'm also using: 1 ADV Profile Dampener, 1 ADV Precision Enhancer, and an ADV Cloak. That's it. I didn't get any noticeable changes in performance aside from the lack of a firearm. I declined in kills, though mostly due to, again, lack of a firearm. Deaths were about average for when I play as a scout. However, I remembered that we play this role quite differently. So based on what you've told us, it's easy to see that you have problems with getting close to the enemy and killing them successfully due to the draw speed of the Novas. I died so many times because of this... It was absolutely agonizing, getting close up and uncloaking. It was obvious that they heard me, and quickly moved around to try to shake off my knives. Needless to say, I'm sticking with my own tactic of, "Oh, you think that your safe if you round that corner up there eh? Heheheh..." or even the peek-a-boo method. (Let them see you while cloaked and run off, lots of players will actually chase you, and you just wait until they pass by...) Engulfed in darkness and set ablaze, the light will never permeate your intangible cage. -Crow & Cardinal


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