DUST Search - An Argument for Giving CP for Battle Completion

Aeon Amadi wrote:

So your argument against it is that it is unnecessary..?

It isn't about a corporation needing every member to making their 1000 CP contribution so much as players who want to do more for their corporation than -just- the 1000 CP contribution. If they're going to do it anyway, why not just make it easier for them to do so than try and dissuade them and create even more alts in the game?

And the mission bit is argumentative logic. Yeah, in theory and on paper it should promote teamwork, but if that is the case than it should be a Corporation Mission and not a personal daily mission. Daily missions should be reasonable expectations from a single player and if they have to completely change playstyles (I.E: A tank to destroy 15 installations) or pull in help from a corp-mate than it isn't a reasonable expectation of a single person to achieve that mission.

Things like Vehicle Kill Assists, which basically -require- teamwork in order for a player to complete, IMO aren't daily missions - but even still that isn't what this thread is discussing and is only loosely related to it and I'd rather this thread not be derailed discussing the mechanics of daily missions.

Aeon Amadi wrote:

And the mission bit is argumentative logic. Yeah, in theory and on paper it should promote teamwork, but if that is the case than it should be a Corporation Mission and not a personal daily mission. Daily missions should be reasonable expectations from a single player and if they have to completely change playstyles (I.E: A tank to destroy 15 installations) or pull in help from a corp-mate than it isn't a reasonable expectation of a single person to achieve that mission.

General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.


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General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 70	Posted - 2015.07.12 13:49:00 - [1] - Quote The difference of a couple of hundred CP from leaving a given mission uncompleted is not detrimental to the game. In fact, those missions, aside from the activate a booster x times, SHOULD promote teamwork. Do you know how easy it is for the people I play with to get installation missions done? Two matches, a dozen down. Not even difficult. If your corp is small enough that you absolutely must have every member making their 1000 CP contribution, you just might need more people. People don't need a carrot to stay in matches until the end. They need balls, which CCP cannot give them. I would rather the cowards back out so I can get a blueberry who won't go afk by the ground spawn supply depot just to protect his precious CP. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 72	Posted - 2015.07.12 14:29:00 - [2] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So your argument against it is that it is unnecessary..? It isn't about a corporation needing every member to making their 1000 CP contribution so much as players who want to do more for their corporation than -just- the 1000 CP contribution. If they're going to do it anyway, why not just make it easier for them to do so than try and dissuade them and create even more alts in the game? And the mission bit is argumentative logic. Yeah, in theory and on paper it should promote teamwork, but if that is the case than it should be a Corporation Mission and not a personal daily mission. Daily missions should be reasonable expectations from a single player and if they have to completely change playstyles (I.E: A tank to destroy 15 installations) or pull in help from a corp-mate than it isn't a reasonable expectation of a single person to achieve that mission. Things like Vehicle Kill Assists, which basically -require- teamwork in order for a player to complete, IMO aren't daily missions - but even still that isn't what this thread is discussing and is only loosely related to it and I'd rather this thread not be derailed discussing the mechanics of daily missions. My biggest argument against it is that by adding a CP component to completing matches promotes horrible play, like AFK'ing by a supply depot to farm CP. Look at your corp leader and his history of imploring his players to AFK to farm SP before Uprising. You want to give that dude a license to print CP, all while destroying pub matches by reinvigorating the afk problem from the past? Aeon Amadi wrote: And the mission bit is argumentative logic. Yeah, in theory and on paper it should promote teamwork, but if that is the case than it should be a Corporation Mission and not a personal daily mission. Daily missions should be reasonable expectations from a single player and if they have to completely change playstyles (I.E: A tank to destroy 15 installations) or pull in help from a corp-mate than it isn't a reasonable expectation of a single person to achieve that mission. I wanted to separate this portion for another response, because it raises interesting questions about the game as a whole. Is dust a team/group game, or one that is amenable to solo play? When I raised the point of team deploy for FW being detrimental to the solo player, a majority of the responses from the q sync lobby was that Dust was a team game, and should be played as such. You and I seem to both be on the same page from reading some of your responses in that thread, but I think we are in the minority. So if Dust is a team game, having missions that push you out of your comfort box are a good thing. Then you have a choice to either expand your horizons or not finish the mission. I choose to not even bother with hacking primary objective missions. They are not in my wheelhouse, and I don't feel like going out of my way to do them. But I make that choice, not anyone else. I get that some people are completionists, and they absolutely must complete their daily list of tasks, and I pity those people. It must be horrible to look at a game and make it into a job because you can't accept leaving anything on the table. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 74	Posted - 2015.07.12 16:00:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I doubt there'd be much appeal in AFKing an entire match just for a small sum of CP - especially when you don't see any instantaneous rewards for that. It isn't like ISK and SP where you get that sum to your personal assets, you can't really do anything with CP except in Planetary Conquest so the benefits of obtaining it while AFKing aren't very high, I feel. Right, because no corp ever abused game mechanics to get ahead. Just because you doubt that there are people who will abuse such a system doesn't mean you are not in corp run by someone who can't resist doing everything sleazy to get his people ahead. Since he already mangled pubs with his BS before, I believe that giving your corp the benefit of the doubt is not deserved. The carrot at the end of the match is already there in the form of ISK and SP. If that isn't enough of an incentive to stay in match, adding another won't change it. What it will do is open up the prospect of people deciding that once they have their WP minimum, AFKing in the ground spawn is preferable to quitting and opening up that slot for someone who might actually want to play. I would rather have a irl 2 year old who is trying versus a bitter vet who is hugging the supply depot for his precious rewards. If anything, there needs to be a stick rather than a carrot if you want to keep people in matches. Not that that would actually work, because people quit matches for all sorts of reasons, not all of them player related(I'm looking at you Gal lag facility). General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 80	Posted - 2015.07.12 18:10:00 - [4] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Dude, you gotta lay off with this sort of conspiracy non-sense. -AT LEAST- play with the dude a while before you start trying to turn him into a disney villain. I can't even be civil with you when you turn this tangent because it's just irritating. I don't need to play more with Kain. Its not about his personality either. His actions are what he gets judged by, just like the rest of us. I don't care one iota about what he says, I only care about what he does. I got a great laugh about how Kain was trying to peddle that honest guy motif, but when I logged on that day, what do I see in the squad finder? "Turrets and Hacks PC" lead by Kain Spero. You don't get people to think you are a stand up guy by saying that you are one. You earn it through your actions. Aeon Amadi wrote: You realize how stupid it would be to sit there and AFK for twenty freaggin minutes just for a measly amount of CP? And yet, we used to have squads of people AFK'ing for those same rewards. Even with the WP cap, you can see people AFK'ing to this day, although most of them only start after the match is a blow out. If you give people an easy way to get something, there will be those who low brow it. Aeon Amadi wrote: Think about the math for a second. Assuming we went with your 25 CP per match completion (which I think is even too much but for the sake of argument) you'd have to sit there and AFK for an hour and twenty minutes just to get the same amount of CP you'd get from a single daily mission. Given that in your examples, people for some reason are incapable of doing their missions(which is false of course) then since they won't be getting it any other way they might as well right? Aeon Amadi wrote: You'd be better off using alt farming. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. If you gave me the choice between AFKing for an hour and a half and logging onto an alt character and getting 10 kill assists, I'd pick up the mass driver any day. Hate to ruin your crazy "KAIN IS GONNA MAKE ALL OF NF AFK FOR THE REST OF ETERNITY" conspiracy theory. Alt farming puts you on the field in a lower SP toon, so knock yourself out. It puts you in battle, trying to complete missions. Go nuts bro! You want to play 80 missions a day, do you! At least you are going after a goal and working it, instead of just having stuff handed out for showing up. There should not be a participation medal in New Eden. Aeon Amadi wrote: But, while we're talking about Kain, you wanna know something hilarious? As much as you villainize the guy, he got CCP to fix the PC ISK generation in a time where you literally had to go so far as getting 95% of Molden Heath and AFK ISK generating to show CCP that something was broken. But, yanno, Dark Knight quotes. And made sure to profit fully off of it. People act like it was only Kain that got the change made, which is crap. There were many voices crying out for a change, and given how ineffective the CPM is generally, you can't just say Kain did this and actually mean it. You could make a reasonable argument, given how CCP has reacted with the mob since that time that the outcry was more than enough to get the change made. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 80	Posted - 2015.07.12 23:18:00 - [5] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: General is only on point with Slippery Slope arguments, which if we're to completely halt progress on the basis that "x, y, and z, might get boosted" then we might as well just stop all development for Dust 514 at all. What about Progressions? I could make an alt and with passive SP alone I could claim loadouts and sell them!!! I could be rich! Oh and what about the keys? Pray tell the free key we get for simply being in a winning match! I could just have all of my alts AFK through a few matches until they each get a victory and earn free officer gear!!! It's absolutely ridiculous. It's the same reason there was so much tinfoil about Team Deploy - the basis that "oh god with team deploy it'd be easier for people to boost! So much more so than 8 man squads!" There isn't enough tin foil in the world, man. EDIT: And really, instead of just whining and complaining about Kain's methods (which worked, I'll remind you) why don't you man up and take the fight directly to him instead of armchair warrioring? I don't think you know how the slippery slope argument works, but ok. I've been fairly consistent in my outlook that weak systems will be abused. But even that isn't what this is about at its core. Having yet another freebie for finishing a match promotes unwanted behaviour, namely sitting AFK in a match until it is over, once you have lost x amount, or have decided you don't want to play anymore. There is already participation SP, people who won't play a whole match don't deserve even that, let alone an extra reward just for not quitting. To your edit, I will say the following: The idea that Kain was responsible either solely or chiefly assumes a whole host of facts not in evidence. I doubt you could make a case that is more plausible than the far more likely "Enough people complained long enough" options for why it was changed. Can you provide a case where you have any proof other than "Kain told me he pushed real hard in the CPM meetings"? But to the idea that I should man up and take the fight to him, you don't remember your history. Not surprising considering that you think Kain got PC changed, but its problematic for having discussions about what has happened. Go look at Pdiggys old PC fights video which are from the first week or two of PC, and there you will find me, fighting Imperfects. So unlike you, who flaked out of several PC corps before landing on team Kain, I stood my ground. And if PC mattered, heck, if dust mattered more than a chat room where I can shoot missiles at people while I chat, then you would find me on the other side. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.