DUST Search - Rate of fire module discussion.

Sleepy Shadow wrote:

Bright Cloud wrote:

Sleepy Shadow wrote:

What would be the point of these? Why do we need them? Why create modules that make balancing yet again more difficult? I think these would just create more problems than they are worth. I donGÇÖt even like damage mods but I do use them religiously.

And if you do these then you also must add range mods and heatsinks. If weGÇÖre going to start taking gun drawbacks away then we must do them all.

We need it as a way to increase the DPS on shield suits. Armor suits have damage mods to increase their DPS. The reason why shield suits+damage mods is a no go is simply the fact that you give up a primary module slot to gain damage, while on armor suits their primary tank stays intact when fitting damage mods into highslots.

The grim alternative from Ratatti would be to move damage mods into lowslots and that would mean armor gets the short stick. So what would you prefer:

A game where you have damage mods in highslots and rate of fire modules in lowslots
A game where you only have damage mods but they would go into lowslots

If you dont support it then Ratatti just simply takes the second option which devalues all of your armor suits.

IGÇÖm not a fan of any module that alters gun performance and that includes damage mods. And CCP should have added middle slots from the start anyway; we wouldnGÇÖt have this problem if they had. All races could add damage mods or other performance altering mods without sacrificing their main tank.

And if this came to be, I have no problems sacrificing my reps to get RoF. So I would have three damage mods and two RoF mods which would, again, vastly outdo the Caldari as they cannot sacrifice that many high slots but I can sacrifice two low slots. I can always carry a nifty hive to replenish my armour or swap to reactive plates.

These modules would also be very popular for heavies. Their base HP is so high that a Gallente or Amarr slapping RoF mods instead of plates would be very popular, especially if they are leashed by a logi. I guess the Caldari could use damage mods instead but thatGÇÖs a harsh price to pay.

I would honestly advocate middle slots rather than new modules that have the chance to really make a mess. Or just get rid of the damage mods. Everyone happy then?

When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.


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Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 212	Posted - 2015.07.09 21:33:00 - [1] - Quote Hmm, I like... Would also help low DPS weapon's in general and unbalanced weapon's, but would also make amarr and gallente scary, but less HP overall for them, fine Cloud... You win my +1 When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 212	Posted - 2015.07.09 22:15:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I think base charge time is 0.6 for the RR. I have to look at my spreadsheet collection. Now imagine the firepower output of someone with a full rack of damage mods and a full rack of RoF mods. Glass cannon from hell. Puts out a wall of death. Dies if a small child busts ass nearby. That'd be fun, and the RR's charge is 0.45, 0.30 for the ARR and Magsec, .40 on the BP, and 1.0 on the CSR I believe. However using a google calculator the charge time reduction's are extremely low when putting on even an 8% one, 35% would give the RR, ARR charge time at: 0.2925 or simplistically 0.34. The ARR specifcally however, the charge time would go down to: 0.195 or 0.24, BP would simply be 0.26. CSR: 0.65. To prevent extreme stacking's, the penalties need to be unique to the ROF mod's, 1st one should give full, 2nd one should only give 10%, and 3rd 5% of any further one's would be 2.5 and 1.25 for 5th mod. Just my 10 isk. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 214	Posted - 2015.07.09 22:44:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The only way you're getting 35% is with 5 mods and no penalties. 3 mods at 7% is right around an 18% bonus after stacking penalties, rather than 21%. Past 3 mods the additional units become increasingly useless and at 5 if I recall the benefit of a 7% mod hovers between 1-2%. Heavy mods are even worse. It's almost never feasible to stack more than 3 mods of any given type. I'm stating 35% at Proto actually. As for ROF, at 6-8-10%'s it's perfect, 10% is more than enough for the slow ROF of the RR. (With 10% prototype) RR: would be 507.694 or 508.9 ROF ARR: would be 660 (Assuming that we don't use handheld unique mod's) Magsec: 717.387 or 718.8 ROF BP: ROF 78.199 or 79.9 Google calc's gotta love it. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 214	Posted - 2015.07.10 03:30:00 - [4] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: I don't think ROF is the way to go to be honest. Some weapons would get far more benefit than others. People could theoretically gravitate to the weapons that would get the most benefit from RoF, then put on both damage and RoF mods in moderate numbers while maintaining a reasonable amount of tank and/or speed. As I suggested in the other thread, I think an accuracy mod would be better. It's a bit more skill reward based -- and it can't be abused by modded controllers that can reset the resulting dispersion/recoil penalties that would come with an RoF mod. Well it won't effect Tac weapons, so you won't see ScR RoF and DMG mods on an amarr, unless its assault, 10% will only get you so much increased RoF, if you made RoF penalties uniquely give half at 2nd and half at 3rd, WHILE applying EvE penalties, you won't see a huge number of players utilising them. Yes CR gets a RoF, but due to burst intervals, it wouldn't be a major buff, unless again, its assault, AR and BAR, sure maybe, but given my suggestion above, your looking at a little less than 15% RoF increase. at best. I'm on Ps3 sending this through so i won't give stats. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 225	Posted - 2015.07.10 16:18:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Neither for or against this one just yet, but ... 1. Seems when a gaggle of HMGs are going off nearby, framerate is at increased odds of taking a hit. Especially when in extreme close quarters (i.e. under 10m). Do you think the engine can process/compute faster HMG (or CR) fire without impacting performance? 2. TTK at the shallow end of the HP Pool presently leaves little room for error. Are you concerned about the possibility of creating new viability issues for units operating in the 215-400HP range? 3. Would love to see more module diversity in play and better armor v shield interplay, but couldn't these goals be accomplished more directly and at lesser risk/effort by simply making plates less attractive? 1. It would only effect fully automatic model's due to the fact that burst model have firing interval's, and tactical's are set to 600, you wouldn't see a considerable change. 2. The only way that could happen is as if they stacked ROF mod's in exchange for plates in the first place, you won't see people running stacked ROF mod's, you'll more than likely see 1 with less HP considering how high the ROF on most weapon's are. 3. You seem to forget that this RoF mod would also reduce the charge spool on caldari weapon's (I guess it would effect the SCR in term's of charge time rather than ROF anyhow) and given that their in the low slot, it would help shield's much more than armor's. People only seem to be thinking of min and amarr weapon's, but remember the human hand can only fire so fast on a tac (curse you modded controller's) and the burst weapon's have interval's. Still, your risking more HP and fighting against player's who may run anti armor weapon's like the RR's and such, if your a shield player, it'd help greatly to have a shield mod in the low's. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 226	Posted - 2015.07.10 20:16:00 - [6] - Quote Hector Carson wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Hector Carson wrote: ok just to be blunt this module needs more stats, you need to be more specific on what this module affects and what they affect otherwise this module makes no sense. Give the Module an affect for if it is a charge up weapon it gives a shorter charge time EXCLUDING the RR the rail rifle is not really usable due to the insane hip fire kick. And as ive sayd it makes your gun shot faster and reduces the charge time for weapons that have a charge up time. Like forgeguns, rail rifles, bolt pistols, ion pistols etc. Its a simple design to approach DPS increase for shield tanked suits. It should aswell be obvious that the faster your gun fires the worse the dispersion and kick gets. But thats just normal for every FPS game. I'm sorry but the mechanics for this module seem a little complex idk if CCP would waste there time with a useless module It's not a complex mechanic, it's practically similar to the damage mod's, but effect's the stats of a weapons' charge time and ROF, and you say it's useless cause it would help weapon's with incomprehensibly slow fire rate's. Simply put: If a weapon has a charge spool (RR) it's charge spool would be effected and it's ROF, if it's simply a slow ROF weapon (BAR) then it simply get's the ROF increase, no charge time is in the BAR so it there. And if you increase the charge time for a scrambler shot, that in of itself would balance out the module. I used google to find the best number's, number's that would allow both caldari weapon's and other weapon's to improve, Charge Time Reduction: Basic 25% Adv 30% Proto 35% RoF Increase: Basic 6% Adv 8% Proto 10% Perfect number's, and if you actually read my comment's which I'm sure you probably, like most people do, ignore an entire page's worth of comment's that lead upto this. You also know that we (myself actually) came up with a solution for penalties in term's of stacking. Take your time and read the comment's. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 233	Posted - 2015.07.12 19:54:00 - [7] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: What would be the point of these? Why do we need them? Why create modules that make balancing yet again more difficult? I think these would just create more problems than they are worth. I donGÇÖt even like damage mods but I do use them religiously. And if you do these then you also must add range mods and heatsinks. If weGÇÖre going to start taking gun drawbacks away then we must do them all. We need it as a way to increase the DPS on shield suits. Armor suits have damage mods to increase their DPS. The reason why shield suits+damage mods is a no go is simply the fact that you give up a primary module slot to gain damage, while on armor suits their primary tank stays intact when fitting damage mods into highslots. The grim alternative from Ratatti would be to move damage mods into lowslots and that would mean armor gets the short stick. So what would you prefer: A game where you have damage mods in highslots and rate of fire modules in lowslots A game where you only have damage mods but they would go into lowslots If you dont support it then Ratatti just simply takes the second option which devalues all of your armor suits. IGÇÖm not a fan of any module that alters gun performance and that includes damage mods. And CCP should have added middle slots from the start anyway; we wouldnGÇÖt have this problem if they had. All races could add damage mods or other performance altering mods without sacrificing their main tank. And if this came to be, I have no problems sacrificing my reps to get RoF. So I would have three damage mods and two RoF mods which would, again, vastly outdo the Caldari as they cannot sacrifice that many high slots but I can sacrifice two low slots. I can always carry a nifty hive to replenish my armour or swap to reactive plates. These modules would also be very popular for heavies. Their base HP is so high that a Gallente or Amarr slapping RoF mods instead of plates would be very popular, especially if they are leashed by a logi. I guess the Caldari could use damage mods instead but thatGÇÖs a harsh price to pay. I would honestly advocate middle slots rather than new modules that have the chance to really make a mess. Or just get rid of the damage mods. Everyone happy then? Not really, there's still the fact that armor out right beats shield's 90% of the time, and also you can't add medium slot's, too late for that. If shield's must sacrifice HP for damage mod's, armor must sacrifice HP for ROF mod's, that's the logic here. Switching to reactive's still mean's you're losing considerably HP, yes heavies would use them too, obviously, but if it's only at 10%, it would only help HMG's, FG's and it's variant's (except burst). 35% charge reduction would help all Caldari weapon's (and SCR but it's getting nerfed anyway, and amarr would also have to sacrifice HP for ROF mod's so that in of itself is a +). Shield's would be able to fire their gun faster, anyone in armor trying to stack ROF mod's loses out in HP vs shield's, allowing shield's vs armor to excel prominently better than armor suit's, even with reactive's, shield's still get more shield and more recharge return, after a caldari rebalance, thing's should balance itself out. Look on Page 1, for my proposal (pretty much the same as this, but give's more detail to the change's that would ensue). When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 235	Posted - 2015.07.13 01:07:00 - [8] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: People probs overlook it but my OP has the intend to only allow one kind of DPS enhancing module on it. You have to chose to either have ROF modules or dmage mods, which means you can only stack one kind of module and not both at once which would turn the fit invalid. We could improve upon that with weapon fit's as well, but that's for another thread and another time. Overall, I suppose you have a point. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 238	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:24:00 - [9] - Quote Went through some **** nit's, going to a stacking penalties D514 wiki and using google calculator to try and find out what the actual number's would be, and I'm liking what I'm seeing. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 241	Posted - 2015.07.16 01:35:00 - [10] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I do not like the idea of rate of fire modules. It would unbalance auto and semi auto weapons, and also give an unfair advantage to suits with a large number of module slots, since there would be synergy to using a combination of rate of fire and damage. Re-read my OP it states that using both modules on a suit would make the fit invalid. Geez would people please read the whole thing before splurting nonesnese on my thread? Thanks. People are going to state "this, that, and another thing" just so they can avoid the death of 900+ armor fitted suit's, remember, armor player's only play to benefit themselves, not the game. (Yes the same can be said for shield, but shield's have had, for a long time, a falling out, in the battle against armor.) When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.

Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 247	Posted - 2015.07.16 19:05:00 - [11] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: as CCP ratatti allready brought up in a different thread we might get rate of fire enhancing modules which should go into lowslots. However to make them viable they have to do more then just increasing the rate of fire due to some weapons have charge up times etc. What im looking at is that this module should reduce the charge up time for all weapons that have it (rail rifles, magsecs, scramblers etc.) and aswell grant the rate of fire bonus. The reasoning behind that is that damage mods dont just simply improve direct hit damage but aswell splash damage for massdrivers etc. So with that in mind i was thinking about a lineup like this: Light weapon rate of fire enhancers Basic= +3% rate of fire and -3% charge time Enhanced= +5% rate of fire and -5% charge time Complex= +7% rate of fire and -7% charge time Heavy weapon rate of fire enhancers Basic= +3% rate of fire and -3% charge time Enhanced= +4% rate of fire and -4% charge time Complex=+5% rate of fire and -5% charge time Sidearm rate of fire enhancers Basic= +4% rate of fire and -4% charge time Enhanced= +6% rate of fire and -6% charge time Complex= +8% rate of fire and -8% charge time The values are exact mirrors to damage mods. The thing which is going to make them a bit weaker then damage mods is that they do not increase the damage per clip and only the DPS. So in a gunfight you will run out of ammo much quicker compared to some one who has damage mods fitted. I suggest that dropsuit fits will become invalid if you try to use damage mods and rate of fire enhancers at the same time. Simply to prevent insta melting fits. Edit: Made the important part about fitting DPS modules easier to read cause people are ignorant. You do realize that -7% to charge is absolutely nothing. My sniper would charge in like 3.72 secs instead of 4. WOW! Why would you use ROF on a sniper? Snipers are all about high damage and headhsots. On a tactical sniper however this might work wonders. You could aswell use 3 of them and get a significant higher bonus. The value is the same cause it could have the potential to break the forgegun charge time. Just imagine a forgegun with tripple stacked ROF mods and each reduces the time by 35% (as some one suggested). True, but the armorer would be squishy, unless it's a cal sentinel with 2 low's, then it could be hard to take him down, but the number's I suggested is purely to help low, low slot number suit's, if someone had the urge to stack ROF mod's on armor fit's, 2 or even 3, that's major health loss on them, especially amarr and gallente. Aside from that, I checked it, stacking 3 would in fact give the CSR 1.5 second's of charge, but the SR's in general are clunky (and sniper's do need some love), charge time of the SCR could be increased (their getting nerfed anyway), Gun's like the AR would only benefit from the 10% ROF as that would make it from 800 to 880. As for your suggestion, the number's are fine but make's the module weak and I'm not comfortable with having ROF mod's mimicing damage mod's, they'd be extremely blan and wasteful, only useable on already High ROF weapon's like the AR. One 8% module on an RR would only reduce it down from .45 to .41, stacking 2 would be .38, armor fits have the advantage as then, shield's would have to lose 2 regulators, or on some fit's a kincat and a regulator, to even get the same effect, while 35% would mean we'd only have to sacrifice 1 regulator or kincat. Remember, Armor sacrifices nothing for damage mod's, shield's sacrifice a lot for damage mod's. When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.