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Posted - 2015.06.18 12:06:00 -
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Nocturnal Soul wrote:What!!!! It can't be!!! It's total balance since it has AA like every other gun. IIRC, Aim Assist adhesion and magnetism can be tuned on a weapon-by-weapon basis. Bolt Pistol AA feels like it might be set a 'bit higher than that of other weapons.
Note: Proficiency 5 Bolt Pistol; my favorite sidearm nexts to knives.
Another Note: If the Bolt Pistol were Gallente, Aeon would be explained to all of us why it is so well balanced.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Posted - 2015.06.18 12:50:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: PPS: If the Bolt Pistol were Gallente, bet you guys 1000AUR this thread would read differently.
If this thread was about scouts, you would be defending the crap out of them. See how baseless this argument is? If this thread were about Scouts following 1.8, I'd be in here listing specific nerf recommendations for each and every race. Especially the ones I use. Imagine that, Cat Merc. Advocating to nerf something you use (even if belongs to your favorite race) when you recognize that it is overperforming.
I can't recall many instances where Team Gallente stepped up and owned their overperforming items. Can you? I recall lots and lots of defending the overpowered AR back the day. The overpowered Breach AR more recently ("it's just doing its job"). And even now, overperforming Armor as evidenced by usage rates and a persistent and distinct lack of Low Slot Diversity.
When it's Rail Weaponry or Shields on the line, Team Gallente is quick to complain. But give Dust an overpowered Assault Rifle or a favorable HP tank meta, and they'll defend it tooth-and-nail. "It's just doing its job!"
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Posted - 2015.06.18 13:18:00 -
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Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: PPS: If the Bolt Pistol were Gallente, bet you guys 1000AUR this thread would read differently.
If this thread was about scouts, you would be defending the crap out of them. See how baseless this argument is? If this thread were about Scouts and Scouts were OP, I'd be in here listing specific nerf recommendations. Which is exactly what I (and other Scouts) did between Uprising 1.8 and last December. Imagine that, Cat Merc. Advocating to nerf something you use (even if belongs to your favorite race) when you recognize that it is overperforming. I can't recall many instances where Team Gallente stepped up and owned their overperforming items. Can you? I recall lots and lots of defending the overpowered AR back the day. The overpowered Breach AR more recently ( "it's just doing its job"). And even now, overperforming Armor as evidenced by usage rates and a persistent and distinct lack of Low Slot Diversity. When it's Rail Weaponry or Shields on the line, Team Gallente is quick to complain. But give Dust an overpowered Assault Rifle or a favorable tank meta, and they'll defend it tooth-and-nail. "It's just doing its job!" -Rubs forehead as Adipem tries to make this a racial thing again-
I'm with you 100%, Aeon. Let's tune down Bolt Pistol Aim Assist. Let's also work on that Magsec, eh? And while we're out balancing imbalanced things, let's also tune down Armor and tune down Assaults.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Posted - 2015.06.18 13:24:00 -
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Aeon Amadi wrote:Let's just ignore the fact that I was landing ungodly and impossible headshots and landing impossible hits that the video clearly shows -were no where near the target-. Let's just automatically assume that this is Aeon Amadi and "Team Green" trying to nerf a Bolt Pistol because it is Caldari.
Let's just assume, like every other time, that someone is being bias instead of presenting evidence at face value based on initial interpretations with clear, concise, and irrefutable evidence provided.
Because when you have absolutely no argument to defeat the evidence and data presented the only thing you can do is make a ham-fisted attempt that the person presenting the evidence is somehow wrong based on something that has -absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter at hand-.
I mean, let's face it, if I ran Caldari -FROM NOW ON- it wouldn't change a thing. I'd suddenly be "That Caldari guy that has absolutely no clue of what he's talking about because he doesn't run Gallente" rather than "The dude who actually gave it an honest shot" - which sounds DISTINCTLY FAMILIAR to that one time in the barber shop when I actually tried to give Nova Knives an honest-to-god go and got flame-warred out of the thread (yanno because I don't live, breathe, and die Scouts or some BS like that).
At any rate. Carry on with the steady graduation to copper foil.
I'm not trying to "defeat your evidence". I agree with you that something is wrong with Bolt Pistol's Aim Assist settings, and I agree with you that it should be fixed. Also, something seems to be wrong with that MagSec, right?
My point is that if the Bolt Pistol were Gallente tech (rather than Caldari), you'd be making excuses for it rather than making videos to attack it. Just like you defended and made excuses for the overpowered AR, the overpowered Breach AR, the overpowered GalLogi, and today's overly dominant "let's all stack brick" meta.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 13:57:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote: Sorry Adipem, but you never advocated a nerf yourself. Instead, you waited until a dev said something suggesting a nerf, and then looked how to make it softer.
Nonsense.
HF Alpha Rattati arrived on the scene and pitched Scout nerfs (rightfully so). I recommended we instead we immediately fix fire-from-cloak and buff Assaults to make them better slayers than brick-tanked Scouts. (In hindsight, we probably should've done both simultaneously.)
HF Bravo IIRC, this one was focused more on V/AV than infantry. During HF Bravo, Gal and Cal Scout populations remained too high. The Barbershop and I put together proposal for HF Charlie which would directly nerf Gallente and Caldari Scouts. Rattati caught wind of it and reworked the proposal into something of his own.
HF Charlie During HF Charlie, the Scout Class attained Racial Parity for the first time ever. Scout populations, however, remained too high. From that point forward, the Barbershop and I concocted, proposed and pitched to Rattati nerf after nerf to (1) decrease Scout kill/spawn efficiency and (2) encourage slayers to migrate to Assaults. These included:
* Increased plate penalties for Scouts * Efficacy bonuses to EWAR modules vs flat bonuses to base statistics * Cloakblind (Haerr came up with the idea in the Barbershop; most of us supported it) * Increased decloak delay * Various changes to scan mechanics (including the removal of passive scan directional arrow)
The record is very clear. The Barbershop and I recognized Scout overperformance for what it was, and we took the lead in getting Scouts nerfed. No one dislike FoTM Scouts more than us.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Posted - 2015.06.18 14:16:00 -
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Your claim was "Sorry Adipem, but you never advocated a nerf yourself." Your claim is patently and demonstrably false.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Posted - 2015.06.18 14:17:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:Pssst: Arkena is writing a shield thread to list the problems and possible solutions with shields, similar to what we did to armor back in early Uprising. So there's that
That's good, but I wouldn't push for any major adjustments until we see what comes of the strafe speed changes.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 14:23:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: Your claim was "Sorry Adipem, but you never advocated a nerf yourself." Your claim is patently and demonstrably false.
Never? Did I say never? If so, that was hyperbole. If not, great strawman.
You literally just said it. It is right here in Post #38. Feel free to edit it out :-)
Cat Merc wrote:What I said is mostly, and most of the nerfs you came up with were not intended to balance scouts vs other suits, they were intended to balance Gal/Cal vs Min/Am, the Barbershops' favorites. There were nerfs/changes we favored and there were nerfs/changes we thought would bring about imbalance. That's the extent of it. We tried to fix the problems which plagued our class without creating new (or worse) problems.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 14:27:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:Dunno how you operate Post above edited.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 14:29:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Cat Merc wrote:What I said is mostly, and most of the nerfs you came up with were not intended to balance scouts vs other suits, they were intended to balance Gal/Cal vs Min/Am, the Barbershops' favorites. There were nerfs/changes we favored and there were nerfs/changes we thought would bring about imbalance. That's the extent of it. Spkr imbalance? Even when HAVs were at their very worst, I don't think that Spkr (or Taki) ever conceded that there might actually be a problem.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 14:35:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Cat Merc wrote:What I said is mostly, and most of the nerfs you came up with were not intended to balance scouts vs other suits, they were intended to balance Gal/Cal vs Min/Am, the Barbershops' favorites. There were nerfs/changes we favored and there were nerfs/changes we thought would bring about imbalance. That's the extent of it. Spkr imbalance? Even when HAVs were at their very worst, I don't think that Spkr (or Taki) ever conceded that there might actually be a problem. True. You are better than Spkr or Taka These are special cases, no doubt, but how far removed are they from those who defended ARs when 80% of every killfeed of every match read "Assault Rifle"?
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Posted - 2015.06.18 14:49:00 -
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Here you make so much sense. A few months later, you're on the other side of the argument. Boggles the mind.
Edit: March 2013 was pre-Uprising. Did you switch to AR with Uprising 1.0?
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Posted - 2015.06.18 15:29:00 -
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One Eyed King wrote:Shotty, ever hear of the truism of never arguing with certain types of people because they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience?
Don't waste your time brother.
Some people want a fight and not an honest discussion. I picked this fight by calling out Aeon. Aeon's concerns about Bolt Pistol aim assist very likely have merit, and I think his video does a good job at demonstrating those concerns. I only wish he were so thorough when addressing all instances of imbalance.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 15:37:00 -
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Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:One Eyed King wrote:Shotty, ever hear of the truism of never arguing with certain types of people because they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience?
Don't waste your time brother.
Some people want a fight and not an honest discussion. I picked this fight by calling out Aeon. Aeon's concerns about Bolt Pistol aim assist very likely have merit, and I think his video does a good job at demonstrating those concerns. I only wish he were so thorough when addressing all instances of imbalance. I am. You just don't see it because you're so freaggin quick on the Ad Hominem trigger and the "Team Green Bias" button. If this were true, you would've been allover the pre-nerf Breach AR rather than all about making excuses for it. Same with low-slot diversity / brick meta. Same with GalLogi scans. Same with Assault utilization and efficiency rates.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 16:06:00 -
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Aeon Amadi wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:>>"This is pretty unfair. People being worried that some suggested nerfs would be going too far, doesn't mean they weren't advocating nerfs. Particularly considering CCP tend to overdo nerfs and buffs.<<"
This is very true and it works both ways.
Cognitive Bias is once again the word for today. This message has been brought to you by the Tunnel Snakes. Just to be clear, I am in no way involved with Adipem's comments about "Team Gallente" or anything like that. I'm not accusing anyone of bias and don't want to be dragged into it. I was purely commenting on the history of scout balancing discussions. Oh no, I'm not saying you were at all. I was just agreeing with your statement then started talking about those two again. Who cares? Dude got what he wanted. Trolled his way right onto the block list. We'll just meander on about how OP everything Caldari is and how UP everything Gallente is. You notice he never once addressed the list I made right? Never once brought up any of his own proposals for it - just went straight into trolling again with all the Adipem Hominem and Bias he could muster. Dude can't argue and can't make proposals unless it has something to do with Scouts being nerfed but he'd just as quickly forget there's a discussion going on to try and change the way people think about you because it's the only way he can get out of a conversation he doesn't have total control over. Hilarious. No idea what you're talking about. Your post was originally about Bolt Pistol aim assist. I agree with you -- for the 4th time now -- that we should fix it. My point is that we should also other broken things. Even if those other things are Gallente.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 16:25:00 -
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Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:No idea what you're talking about. Your post was originally about Bolt Pistol aim assist. I agree with you -- for the 4th time now -- that we should fix it. My point is that we should also other broken things. Even if those other things are Gallente. I don't really feel that Aeon is all that biased TBH. There have been times when he's advocated for a nerf of Gallente tech before. Either way, this thread WAS about the Bolt Pistol. Aeon's video shows how extreme the AA or magnetism is on this weapon. It's clear to the average observer that the Bolt Pistol needs fixing; not just because it's Caldari. I don't think this is part of Aeon's 'Team Green' agenda. The Bolt Pistol is clearly overpowered anyway. It isn't hard to find posts of Aeon defending overpowered Gallente gear. For instance, he was especially ardent about the Breach AR, back when it was overpowered and spammed as hard as MN Assaults are today.
As for the Bolt Pistol, yes aim assist is likely too strong with this one, but beyond that I don't know that we can safely claim that it is "clearly overpowered".
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Posted - 2015.06.18 16:36:00 -
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Echo 1991 wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:No idea what you're talking about. Your post was originally about Bolt Pistol aim assist. I agree with you -- for the 4th time now -- that we should fix it. My point is that we should also other broken things. Even if those other things are Gallente. I don't really feel that Aeon is all that biased TBH. There have been times when he's advocated for a nerf of Gallente tech before. Either way, this thread WAS about the Bolt Pistol. Aeon's video shows how extreme the AA or magnetism is on this weapon. It's clear to the average observer that the Bolt Pistol needs fixing; not just because it's Caldari. I don't think this is part of Aeon's 'Team Green' agenda. The Bolt Pistol is clearly overpowered anyway. It isn't hard to find posts of Aeon defending overpowered Gallente gear. For instance, he was especially ardent about the Breach AR, back when it was overpowered and spammed as hard as MN Assaults are today. I can find posts for you if you're unable to locate any. As for the Bolt Pistol, yes aim assist is likely too strong with this one, but beyond that I don't know that we can safely claim that it is "clearly overpowered". A sidearm doing more damage than a sniper rifle, with added bullet magnetism. Clearly not OP. It's absolutely possible that it's too good and has too much aim assist, but how would we know? Are its Kill / Spawn Efficiency and Utilization Rates abnormally high?
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Posted - 2015.06.18 17:53:00 -
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That's a great picture, Aeon! Reminds of that time I brought my Emotions to a Logic Fight.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 18:43:00 -
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@ Sgt Kirk
Why does it upset you when people look through your post history? You're running for CPM. People should be looking through your post history. As for my "false acquisitions" about Team Gallente here are a couple interesting Team Gallente quotes from back when the Breach AR was OP/FoTM:
Aeon Amadi wrote:Breach AR is -SUPPOSED- to be great at both [long range and short range] by it's design, though. As an AR it's meant for great CQC performance and by emulating the Rail Rifle it's meant for great long-performance. Don't hate because it's doing it's job.
Sgt Kirk wrote:Lol what? You guys are so pathetic. RR is a ranged weapon, stick to its ideal environment and bot run it in CQC like a dumbass, learning how to aim wouldn't hurt you either. People have depended way too much on easy mode and not thinking it's gotten to the point where they can't function properly without a weapon being able to be good at everything.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 18:44:00 -
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And a few more:
Sgt Kirk wrote:All this nerf Breach AR nonsense and no one is calling out the Combat Rifle's overperformance still is hilarious to me.
Sgt Kirk wrote:Quote:The Breach AR is not OP, it-¦s only effective at what it was designed to do ... Exactly.
Sgt Kirk wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:BAR nerf is on the table, yes. Breach AR nerf? Are you serious? You do play this game right?
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Posted - 2015.06.18 19:34:00 -
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Sgt Kirk wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:And a few more:
[quote=Sgt Kirk]All this nerf Breach AR nonsense and no one is calling out the Combat Rifle's overperformance still is hilarious to me. Yep, you mind finding the multiple post where I take it back and say it does need to be repurposed while you're at it. Like I said before in multiple post. You'll only find the post you want, the ones you don't find according to your wanted worldview are ones you discard. And no, I don't care that you look through my history I have a problem with you showing halfs truths. A half truth is not a truth at all. These quotes are not untrue or half true. These are examples of Team Gallente double standards. These are examples of excusing imbalance. These are examples of defending an item that's being actively spammed as FoTM. And these examples aren't isolated instances.
On Page 1 of this thread, a weapon which admittedly needs tuning but is not over-utilized and absolutely not FoTM falls under Aeon's scrutiny. It isn't Gallente. He labels it "ridiculous" and "overpowered". On the other hand, an overpowered, over-utilized FoTM Gallente Fine Rifle? "Not overpowered." "Just doing its job".
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Posted - 2015.06.18 19:45:00 -
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noob cavman wrote:I... Wha? Since when has the gal ar become op!? If I didn't enjoy the ar for fun fits and racial fits I would 90% of the time throw on a arr for the extra range. Or the cr I think you were taking a break from Dust at that time. This was ~Nov-Dec of last year, and it was only the Breach AR which was OP.
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Posted - 2015.06.18 20:06:00 -
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Sgt Kirk wrote:Gotta go. Going to eat at the cheesecake factory. I admit, I'm jealous. Have fun :-)
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Posted - 2015.06.18 22:52:00 -
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Aeon Amadi wrote:Vitantur Nothus wrote: Breach Assault Rifle Make it great down range or great in CQC. Being great at both is a 'bit too much (see old Rail Rifle). If to be great down range, then hipfire should be erratic. If to be great in CQC, then damage at range should be reduced.
Breach AR is -SUPPOSED- to be great at both by it's design, though. As an AR it's meant for great CQC performance and by emulating the Rail Rifle it's meant for great long-performance. Don't hate because it's doing it's job.
Aeon Amadi wrote:TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote:The Breach AR is the new CQC RR. Nerf hipfire accuracy of the Breach AR to the level of the RR, it is OP. For real. Dude -has- to be trolling if he's saying that an Assault Rifle is OP between December, 2013 and now.
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Posted - 2015.06.19 02:38:00 -
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Aeon Amadi wrote:Shotty, no-one cares. Really. I'm sure I can dig up some posts where you say something that doesn't properly elaborate on your meaning. Pulling and digging up **** in an effort to contradict what I'm saying -NOW- is just childish and immature. Seriously. You should be ashamed of yourself. You claimed right here in Post #111 that you recognized that the Breach AR was overperforming and that you proposed ideas on how to fix it. If that were the case, why isn't there a record of it in the Forums? I looked, and I couldn't find it. All that I found were posts to the opposite effect. If the posts are there, help me find them. Otherwise, it appears that you're making things up. I'm not ashamed for calling you out on that, Aeon. Why would I be?
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Posted - 2015.06.19 19:33:00 -
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Aeon Amadi wrote:The most amusing thing about all of this is that this wasn't even.meant to be a discussion on the weapon balance. I made a video, I slow moed and freeze framed hilarious and strange things, even put a humorous tone to jt with sound effects and sound clips.
Buuuuut of course, leave it to one or two people to come in and start explosively shitting all over the walls about how the weapon is balanced, so terrified of any potential negative feedback to their favorite weapon, and calling out any perceived threat with completely irrelevant topics and "evidence" as to why this conjured statement about why the bolt pistol is OP is wrong despite my NEVER having said it. Hell, I didnt even bring it up for discussion ,I just made a video.
That is how absolutely terrified people are to see the bolt pistol nerfed xD damn the humour, damn the comedic factors, THIS THREAD IS GOIN' DOWN AND TEAM GREEN IS GOIN' WIT" ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT Dude, you just don't when to stop, do you?
I agreed with you from the very beginning that something fishy was going on with the weapon's adhesion/magnetism, and that it should be investigated and fixed. I fully recognize that this would weaken Bolt Pistol. I disclosed that I run the Bolt Pistol at Proficiency(5) and that I really like the gun. In other words, I'm favor of fixing the gun even if I really like the gun, and even if doing so will negatively affect me.
Now how does that compare up to your defense of the OP/FoTM Breach AR?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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