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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.06.15 04:46:00 -
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IMO, the weapon needs a clear indicative advantage in CQC due to the general fact that while you can increase DPS on a weapon you cannot increase range. Ranged weaponry will always be at an advantage over the AR because of this, as you can compliment long-ranged weapons with Damage Modifiers to reduce the gap in DPS.
To put it simply: An prototype ARR with a single complex damage modifier has just 4 DPS difference compared to a prototype AR without, but it also has +30m worth of range. This is a significant advantage.
My proposal is to further narrow the AR's speciality and focus on it's low range and damage.
Exhibit A.
By reducing the optimal range by 10m (putting it at 30m optimal) and increasing the DPS to 551, the AR retains the same DPS that it has at 40m currently (453.33) but becomes extremely fierce at <30m where it should, without a doubt, have an advantage over the other rifles, much in the same sense that the ARR has, without a doubt, the advantage at 70-100m.
If this proposal is too much in favor of the AR, we can reduce the effective range by 10m as well.
Exhibit B.
The negative aspects of this proposal are thusly: 1) TTK for this thing will be incredibly short at <30m - albeit, that is sort of the premise. At 40m, nothing changes, and the weapon performs as it does currently beyond that. 2) Shield damage, with this proposal, would sky-rocket to 606.1 DPS. Considering the state of shields, this might be a bit too powerful.
Discuss.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.06.15 05:00:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:While I agree with the premise, I don't agree with your justification. Nothing is stopping the AR user from putting on damage mods himself.
A better argument is that beyond the effective range you always lose battles, but within your optimal range it depends on skill and not a guaranteed win even if you close the distance and do everything else right.
Long Range weapon at long range = Guaranteed win Short range weapon at short range = A slightly higher chance to win
One is clearly better overall.
Sure, nothing is stopping them from putting damage mods on himself - but not doing so doesn't inherently give him an advantage at CQC anymore. An AR user practically has to use damage mods to remain competitive because the numbers are simple:
At 40m AR: 453.33 ARR: 420
At 70m AR: 158.67 ARR: 420
This is fine, because the ARR is designed for long range combat. However, it quickly becomes skewed whenever the ARR user adds a damage mod. Unless the AR fits a damage mod as well, he's at a disadvantage across the board. The ARR does not suffer from this same disadvantage at range and without range increasing modules there is no way for the AR to change it's competitive ability. Simply put, you can reduce the ARR's weakness (or any long range weapon) simply by adding damage mods, whereas a close range weapon can increase damage all it wants but still retain it's range weakness. Thereby, close range weaponry needs to have enough damage as to -remain competitive- without the necessity of damage mods within it's own range.
Make sense?
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.06.15 05:08:00 -
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Sicerly Yaw wrote:this would make it "OP" the AR is already great in CQC its at a good spot in my opinion, I don't understand why you would want a buff to it
if range is that much of a problem I would say increase effective range and leave the optimal as it is but as it stands it does what it is supposed to do and the other variants are good at range but not so much that it steals another rifles job
the only weapon that doesn't do what it is supposed to do that well is the RR but that's just my opinion
I like the AR if the Caldari can't do CQC that well then why have the Gallente be good at range stick to your role if you dont like it switch roles
you want range go Caldari or Amarr as the ScR is fairly OP at any range
I say if there should be any buff to the AR is to give it a scope so you can aim better with the sight making it easier to kill targets at range, this would be a psudo buff as it only makes it easier to use and doesn't actually give it that much of an advantage
That's the exact -opposite- of what this proposal even brings to the table... It's reducing the range so that it has a clear advantage over other rifles in a CQC environment...
Explain to me how this is in any way fair:
Up to 40m, an AR has a 33.33 DPS advantage over an ARR.
At 70m, an ARR has a 294.66 DPS advantage over an AR.
Sure, if I want range I'll go Caldari - that's not up for debate. What is up for debate is what clear, distinct advantage the AR has in CQC over the other rifles. You might think its "great" in CQC but I don't. I know for a fact that I will lose a firefight with an ARR user at 70m, so why should it be a toss up as to who will win at 30m? Why should the AR not receive a clear, decisive victory in it's realm that the ARR would in it's respective realm?
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.06.15 05:21:00 -
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Sicerly Yaw wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Cat Merc wrote:While I agree with the premise, I don't agree with your justification. Nothing is stopping the AR user from putting on damage mods himself.
A better argument is that beyond the effective range you always lose battles, but within your optimal range it depends on skill and not a guaranteed win even if you close the distance and do everything else right.
Long Range weapon at long range = Guaranteed win Short range weapon at short range = A slightly higher chance to win
One is clearly better overall. Sure, nothing is stopping them from putting damage mods on himself - but not doing so doesn't inherently give him an advantage at CQC anymore. An AR user practically has to use damage mods to remain competitive because the numbers are simple: At 40mAR: 453.33 ARR: 420 At 70mAR: 158.67 ARR: 420 This is fine, because the ARR is designed for long range combat. However, it quickly becomes skewed whenever the ARR user adds a damage mod. Unless the AR fits a damage mod as well, he's at a disadvantage across the board. The ARR does not suffer from this same disadvantage at range and without range increasing modules there is no way for the AR to change it's competitive ability. Simply put, you can reduce the ARR's weakness (or any long range weapon) simply by adding damage mods, whereas a close range weapon can increase damage all it wants but still retain it's range weakness. Thereby, close range weaponry needs to have enough damage as to -remain competitive- without the necessity of damage mods within it's own range. Make sense? the ARR is not so much intended for long range combat as it is for mid range, as it has no scope the fact of the matter is that you are comparing a mid range weapon with a short to mid range one if you want to compare it to a long range weapon compare it to the RR and not the ARR if you want to compare the ARR to something it should be in my opinion the breach AR or Burst AR
Mid-range/Long-range has little to do with it. Compare an AR to an RR? Cool, its the same logic.
40m, AR receives a 55.64 DPS benefit over the RR. 75m, the RR receives a 243.43 DPS benefit over the AR.
Damage mods further skew this unless the AR fits them as well and keeps the number game in check, otherwise, he's just at a disadvantage. Again, a close range weapon cannot overcome it's weakness of range but a long-range/mid-range (honestly, any longer ranged weapon, it really does not matter) can overcome it's weakness of DPS just by adding modules. This option is simply not available for shorter ranged weaponry and as such it needs a complement to make up for that fact.
And sure, we can say that dispersion/recoil has something to do with it but that is largely up to the player to handle up on. Is the AR easier to use? Arguably. That still does not change the fact that the damage application is skewed.
Consider for a moment: What is the likeliness of an AR killing an ARR or RR user at >70m? Would you say anywhere near as close as the likeliness as an ARR or RR killing an AR user at <40m? Unless you can, without a shadow of a doubt, say yes, than I'd like to believe my argument stands.
EDIT: Another thing, how can it be that an AR having a 131 DPS advantage over the ARR at <30m be OP but the ARR sees this sort of benefit at other ranges:
50m 42.58 60m 140.8 70m 239.02 75m 243.43 80m 196.14 85m 148.85 90m 101.55
I'd say the "it would be OP" argument is somewhat flawed, honestly. It would be no more OP, relatively speaking, than an ARR in the opposite situation.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.06.15 18:29:00 -
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Sicerly Yaw wrote:
now the AR if you can't destroy CQC and mid range up to its optimal then you either lack the skills, quite literally the AR skill tree, or you lack aim of any sort
I don't hear many people complaining about the AR being bad at CQC I do however see Gal assaults using ARR's because of the range advantage which is why I keep on bringing up the range
I have 75m SP and all skills relevant to the AR maxxed out. Take a look at what corp I'm in because I can guarantee you I didn't get in because I have terrible gun-game.
As far as not hearing many people complaining about the AR being bad at CQC - you're right, there aren't any. No-one is saying it is bad at CQC, but they're not saying it is outstanding either. There's a reason that the ARR is the most used weapon on Gallente Assault suits in PC. The Assault Rifle is fine, but being at one end of the range/damage spectrum it needs to be remarkable at what it is designed for.
Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:I do like the idea of making the AR the best in CQC, but I worry that it would become overused due to how relatively easy it is to actually get into CQC. I know that if these proposed changes came to be, the AR would probably become the Scout weapon of choice. Perhaps there's another way to improve it's CQC performance? Would limiting all the other rifles' CQC performance be a potential solution?
I would much rather give the AR a buff than to hit all three of the other rifles in an attempt to balance them. The other rifles are decent where they're at (ASCR is a little crazy, it has outright replaced my AR on a lot of my suits lately) and good at what they're supposed to be used for. I don't think it is necessary to try and balance the AR by hitting all the other rifles.
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I don't see anything wrong with the current AR design. High damage, and a pretty big mag. Having that high of damage actually counteracts the damage falloff at range, to a point.
Not to mention that, due to poor map design, most fighting in Dust is done within the AR's optimal anyway.
Did you look at the graph I posted at all? It has the exact same DPS values at range that it currently does. In fact, in Exhibit B, it actually has -reduced- effective range. That would be a nerf to the AR's DPS past 40m.
With exhibit A, the AR performs -exactly as it does right now and currently- at anything beyond 40m. The only thing that is changed is how much damage it does <40m.
To be frank: No. It would not counteract the damage falloff at range.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.06.15 18:33:00 -
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Moochie Cricket wrote:Your proposal and reasoning sounds good on paper, but here is a reason why it sucks in practice.
There isnt a single objective in dust that is out in the open. Not one single objective. You have a long range weapon like a rail rifle? Have fun assaulting a letter when you are within every rifles optimum range.
Did you forget that Shotguns, Nova Knives, and HMGs are a thing or did you just forget that Scouts and Heavies reign supreme in the Orbital Artillery and Gallente Lag Facility?
Are you saying that this proposal sucks in practice because it'd be doing a similar job as those weapons, but offer much more in variety and diversity among those situations?
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.06.15 23:09:00 -
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Moochie Cricket wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Moochie Cricket wrote:Your proposal and reasoning sounds good on paper, but here is a reason why it sucks in practice.
There isnt a single objective in dust that is out in the open. Not one single objective. You have a long range weapon like a rail rifle? Have fun assaulting a letter when you are within every rifles optimum range.
Did you forget that Shotguns, Nova Knives, and HMGs are a thing or did you just forget that Scouts and Heavies reign supreme in the Orbital Artillery and Gallente Lag Facility? Are you saying that this proposal sucks in practice because it'd be doing a similar job as those weapons, but offer much more in variety and diversity among those situations? I'm saying it doesn't work well in practice because most engagements with rifles in dust occur within 40 meters already because of map design. I also disagree with your assumptions and mathematical breakdown of dps because you don't even mention the rail rifle charge up time or insane recoil.
Than feel free to come up with a better proposal - either way, lot of people still think the AR is underperforming and the data pulls from PC confirm it.
EDIT: Just as well, if we're going to consider things like recoil, we'd have to consider the heat build-up/seize for ASCRs but that doesn't seem to be a problem considering how powerful it is in the current meta.
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