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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
My god the butt hurt is real in this thread.
Honestly, I never knew that ringers was such a hot topic issue in PC. I had one dude basically screaming at me like it's the most detrimental part of PC over in the PC discussion in the feedback section. And I see a ton here.
With the number of smaller corps involved in PC, are ringers seriously in every battle. Do the top corps really have that many people, that they can ring for smaller corps on a constant basis. I know many have been tied up with the war we had going on.
Am I wrong in assuming that perhaps the butthurt over ringers isn't nearly as bad as some make it out to be. Honestly, is every battle you have ever had in MH nothing but top corp ringers? I've been involved any many PC's over the years, and have never felt ringers were ever an issue.
Yes I've dealt with my fair share of "ringers", but more than anything poor communication, tactics, ect played a larger role in our loss than the people they brought to field. A great FC certainly makes a huge difference, and while Shep is quite the hard ***, he's def one of the best FC's around.
That's where I credit much of many corps success, leadership, in and out of battle. I've seen good teams, crumble, in the absence of their top dog FC. Great players are just one piece of the puzzle, and often times I feel good players play a much smaller part in the overall win, compared to what you have leading.
Honestly, get off the ringer crusade. With the advent of raiding (if done right) whenever new PC comes out, I'm hoping that corps are going to be more involved with their own holdings that they won't have the time to ring out for other battles.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
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Posted - 2015.06.12 19:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
REDBACK96USMC wrote:
You have the luxury of being in one of the Top Corps.
I think where the problem lies is when Said Corp "Holding" a district has maybe one or two people in the PC battle and the rest are "ringers" from other Corps. Yes I have seen this on more than one occasion.
If a Corp cant field at least 75% of their team for their own district, they shouldnt be able to deploy.
A simple mechanic like that in the Warbarge screen shouldn't cause any undue lag or delay and would also add a level of complexity by making Corps pick and choose who rings for them more carefully. Only bring in the guys with skills you really need. (Vehicles/Slayers/Logi etc.)
Yes, a "luxury" of being in a top corp. I've seen these "top corps" falter in battle on more than one occasion. My main point is that your success isn't haltered by ringers but your own mentality. You lose and go about blaming it on the ringers.
These "ringers" aren't gods, don't have unbeatable magic powers, one shot wonder weapons, or any number of other crazy ideas you can come up with. In my time with my other corp, DDB, this was always a hot topic for many in leadership. OMG, they brought OH, these guys can't beat us on their own.
Straight from the git go, the mentality was "oh noes, we have a fight on our hands and not a stomp". If we lost it was always the ringers fault. It wasn't the incredibly poor tactics the FC choose to use or their inability to adapt to the changing environment. Not the players on our side that ran off point to chase down kills or do their own thing at their teams expense.
No, it's those ringers apparently, not a failure on your own corps part. I've watched as a team fielded nearly their own 16, few ringers, and watch as we "magically" lose the battle. What then do you blame it on, are you going to finally admit that it's a failure on your part.
Nope, let's blame it on the ringers they brought in that carried their team.
It's the corps with this mentality of "I can't win, cause ringers. OMG if they fielded their own people we would stomp them" Sometimes yes maybe, if they fielded their own. Many times it easily goes both ways. But the instant ringers come in, everyone gets in this "we lost" mentality.
Lose and learn a little. Use what you observed, determine strengths and weaknesses in your tactics. What they did that beat you, ect, ect, ect. If you can't get over losing to strong ringers, you will always and ever be a small and weak corp. Your PC play will always be sub par.
I would suggest que syncing factional or pubs if you want an easy win or "fair" fight. It's the best you will ever do with your mentality about PC fights. Plenty of pub stompers out there, maybe just accept your team is just one of them if "ringers" are what prevents you from making progress in PC.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jade Dragonis wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Jade Dragonis wrote:So basically since PC owning corps can make enough money from broken mechanics they have to get paid to play? lol.....
Could you clarify/expand on this? I think I see what you're getting at but am unsure... With the new mechanics that CCP are bringing in Cap Acc wont be able to hold all the districts they currently hold. By selling them then helping the new corps fight they are still making loads of cash without having to hold the actual district. This seems a little desperate from them though. But to each his own.
That's actually untrue. We won't gain full benefits from holding more land than we have active players in the corp. Nothing though will change that makes it any different than it is currently. We currently gain no profit from holding all the land we do now, and really we hold more than we could hold if every district was attacked.
Don't expect the new PC changes to make it impossibe to hold large amounts of land. The main jist of it is that it isn't profitable to hold many districts past at point. Considering that it isn't profitable now, what do you think will change, hmm.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 21:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Jade Dragonis wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Jade Dragonis wrote:So basically since PC owning corps can make enough money from broken mechanics they have to get paid to play? lol.....
Could you clarify/expand on this? I think I see what you're getting at but am unsure... With the new mechanics that CCP are bringing in Cap Acc wont be able to hold all the districts they currently hold. By selling them then helping the new corps fight they are still making loads of cash without having to hold the actual district. This seems a little desperate from them though. But to each his own. I'm not involved with the internals on this effort so am NO authority on how it will proceed BUT there wasn't anything in the OP about corps purchasing districts to participate. I think the reference to compensation was to existing groups that may need relocation so the areas can be consolidated. If Shepherd wanted to extort isk from newberries it would've started a loooong time ago. But, again, I'm not involved in the internals of the whole thing currently and can only comment with an outside perspective based from prior inside experience.
I would assume myself that this isn't what's happening. We have plenty of isk, why would we need more. Shep has always seemed more interested in the battles, not extorting money from smaller corps for personal gain.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 22:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Al the destroyer wrote:
I thought this was a help the newberries to get into and stay in PC thread.
This must be a Get Gud Scrub thread.
Understood carry on!
Getting noobs into PC is all and good, and we can easily get them into it. Yet if they lack the drive or desire to do what it takes to hold that land, and give up the first time they see what they perceive as ringers, they clearly demonstrate they lack that desire or drive.
I well and understand that the noobs need a starting place, yet I have trouble believing that ringers magically appear in all the smaller corps PC's. I personally don't see how EVERY battle they ever did was comprised of "TOP CORP" ringers. Too many districts out there for this to hold true.
Even very good teams I've fought for cringed at the sight of ringers, starting this mentality that they are now going to lose because of it. It's pathetic, if you want to be a good and strong corp, then by god fight for it. I don't care if they brought the best team in dust, I'm going to put my full 110% into the fight. Win or lose, I'll come out better from it.
The main point though, if you aren't shooting for the top or giving your best effort, you don't belong. If one were to take a loss as the end, and view it as an impossibility for future because of ringers, then yes, get gud scrub. A strong corp that truly wanted to get a foothold in PC would take a loss, learn from it, and try again. I don't stand for quitters, man up or go home.
Want an easy time of it, PUBS and Factional are there. Want a challenge, then go PC. Learn from your mistakes and improve. We can hold their hands and carry them for a time, but eventually they have to learn to walk on their own. And if they lack the will to do so, then they never deserved it from the start.
If the top corps thought like this, they would have never made it to where they are.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.12 23:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Al the destroyer wrote:As we are both aware, our own corps like to bring our own 16 if we can always. 0.H loves to see ringers on the other side  I personally don't care if others bring ringers. I can't speak for your CORP chat but I can speak for mine. We have a lot of ppl who love to ring and will do so for many who ask. But if we are talking about noob corp 1 vs noob corp 2 and one of those has 16 of there own and the other has 6 0.H on their team those are going to be tough odds to beat. It can be done but very experienced PC vets in a noob match will be tough to beat. I do agree however that to get better you have to play better teams. And no there isn't ringers for every battle in MH and if its only the strong survive so be it. Every corp I've been in only fields their own. That's why Cap Aq and 0.H are so strong. o7
It just frustrates me when people blame the stagnation or inability to enjoy on ringers. Too many simply give up, and don't even try. I mean I've seen a team of awesome players lose with the lack of a quality FC. Take the same team and throw in good FC and it totally changes.
We can carebear the players newer to PC, but there's certainly nothing we can do about poor organization or leadership. No amount of carebearing (in fact it would be detrimental) would fix that. I'm totally for getting them started, yet eventually they have to learn to walk on their own.
In the end, if only corps members were allowed to participate in a battle, what stops a corp from hiring out stronger corps to take their district back for them. Or simply wiping them off the map. Should we make it then that only a weaker corp can attack a weaker corp. Tier out molden heath maybe, so you will ever have an easy time of it or a fair fight.
Considering the spirit of new eden continues to translate to Dust 514, this would never happen. And honestly, unless you matchmade PC matches, there will always be an imbalance for skill much like we had before the matchmaking for pubs. Ringing is most certainly NOT the problem.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.06.13 00:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shepherd Grey wrote:
We had to play the same game, beating a team twice and then getting stomped by 15-man ring teams on the third battle for the flip -- essentially making our efforts a complete waste of time. But, these experiences actually improved us as a team to be more prepared the next time that same team shows up. Using ringers against you is a nod to the skill YOU have as a team, and you should take it as a compliment they have to rely on help to win in the first place.
Love it, you put it perfectly. A team that has to use ringers to beat you are clearly a bad team. It should give you incentive to keep trying.
Shepherd Grey wrote:
Ringer usage can't be avoided, but inhibited. Lower the reward for ringers in lower tier zones, lower the chance of seeing them. In its current state, PC payouts are really what the lower tier should be - as there is almost no profit margin for proto users. With this low payout setup, low-tier teams will be encouraged to use proto sparingly and instead focus on tactics and teamwork as they battle each other to improve their overall skill. You simply can't remove the merc aspect of the game, but make it less lucrative for top guys to participate in low-tier affairs.
I'm hoping with PC 2.0 that raiding will take care of some of this. Keep the ringers too busy with their own battles to ring out for others. More conflict I think is actually very good for the newer corps getting in.
Nothing stopping corps though from paying out ringers to fight their battles. Maybe if CP was tied into not only your corps mission contributions but though actual PC battle contributions, the incentive would be there to play your own corp (as only they can generate CP though battle) more often if you want any profit from PC.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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