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Jaran Vilktar
Ultimate Spawn Smart Deploy
231
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 19:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've recently skilled into Nova Knife Fitting Optimization 2 in hopes of making my Ishukone NK's cost only 6 PG to fit. According to the game they should only cost 6 PG and when I mount them on an empty frame they do in fact cost 6 PG but when I attempt to fit them on a particular fit they go back to costing 7 PG instead... I got suspicious about this odd occurrence so I began to tinker with my fittings and discovered what I believe may be a serious issue with the games ability to apply the effects of Fitting Optimization and Skills such as the Fitting requirement reduction skills you get for the Cloak Field on Scouts when 2 or more items that rely on these types of skills are added to the same fitting.
Here's an example of this, I have AR Fitting Optimization 1 and NK Fitting Optimization at 2, PLC Fitting Optimization 3 with mk.0 and gk.0 Scouts.
Apply an NK to my empty mk.0 scout and get 44/6, so far so good. I then can apply items to any part of my suit to fill it up and if you count the items fitting costs they all add up, just as they should. Now, when I apply my Duvolle AR to my fit I should only have to pay 12 PG to fit it instead of 13 yet, after managing my PG points I add up the numbers and I notice my AR took 13 PG instead of 12 and a similar issue happens when I add a cloak field to my suit. I Make another empty frame with my mk.0 scout but this time only fit an ARN-18 Cloak Field (11 PG with any Scout at Level 5), a Duvolle AR (12 PG with Fitting Opt. 1) and a set of Ishukone NK's (6 PG with Fitting Opt. 2). Doing some simple math I should have to end up using 29 PG to fit all of these yet, I end up using 30... I mess around with these 3 items, when only 1 of any of these is on the frame the numbers add up but when I add another one I seem to pay 1 PG more than I should and when I pair an Ishukone NK and Duvolle AR I pay 19 PG when I should only pay 18. I then add an advanced Cloak to the fit and get a 30 PG count (19 + 11 = 30 working as intended). When I applied any 2 of these 3 items to my fit the PG of the second item I added was added to the fit in full without accounting for the fitting reduction skills and the 3rd item was applied as it should be. I attempted this same pattern on a gk.0 scout and got the same results, the Allotek PLC (85 CPU with Fitting Opt. 3) whose Fitting Optimization skill reduces CPU rather than PG also seems to be affected by this issue but instead it seems to further reduce the amount of CPU it consumes rather than increase it example: Ishukone NK's (44 CPU) + Allotek PLC (85 CPU) should = 129 CPU and 6 PG... but it takes 128 CPU instead (PG remains at 6).
Though small, this issue can hinder the creation of fits like it did to me this day. I'm sadly a bit short on time today and I can't try different things to see if this issue extends to other suits though i suspect it may also hinder the Logistics class thank's to their class bonus. If anyone who's specced into the logi class could verify this it would be appreciated. Thank's for reading o7
P.S. Sorry for no TL;DR I really think this should be read at your own pace until you get what I'm trying to say.
I can't believe I did it. 514 Logins
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Shadowed Cola
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
117
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Posted - 2015.06.07 20:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jaran Vilktar wrote:I've recently skilled into Nova Knife Fitting Optimization 2 in hopes of making my Ishukone NK's cost only 6 PG to fit. According to the game they should only cost 6 PG and when I mount them on an empty frame they do in fact cost 6 PG but when I attempt to fit them on a particular fit they go back to costing 7 PG instead... I got suspicious about this odd occurrence so I began to tinker with my fittings and discovered what I believe may be a serious issue with the games ability to apply the effects of Fitting Optimization and Skills such as the Fitting requirement reduction skills you get for the Cloak Field on Scouts when 2 or more items that rely on these types of skills are added to the same fitting.
Here's an example of this, I have AR Fitting Optimization 1 and NK Fitting Optimization at 2, PLC Fitting Optimization 3 with mk.0 and gk.0 Scouts.
Apply an NK to my empty mk.0 scout and get 44/6, so far so good. I then can apply items to any part of my suit to fill it up and if you count the items fitting costs they all add up, just as they should. Now, when I apply my Duvolle AR to my fit I should only have to pay 12 PG to fit it instead of 13 yet, after managing my PG points I add up the numbers and I notice my AR took 13 PG instead of 12 and a similar issue happens when I add a cloak field to my suit. I Make another empty frame with my mk.0 scout but this time only fit an ARN-18 Cloak Field (11 PG with any Scout at Level 5), a Duvolle AR (12 PG with Fitting Opt. 1) and a set of Ishukone NK's (6 PG with Fitting Opt. 2). Doing some simple math I should have to end up using 29 PG to fit all of these yet, I end up using 30... I mess around with these 3 items, when only 1 of any of these is on the frame the numbers add up but when I add another one I seem to pay 1 PG more than I should and when I pair an Ishukone NK and Duvolle AR I pay 19 PG when I should only pay 18. I then add an advanced Cloak to the fit and get a 30 PG count (19 + 11 = 30 working as intended). When I applied any 2 of these 3 items to my fit the PG of the second item I added was added to the fit in full without accounting for the fitting reduction skills and the 3rd item was applied as it should be. I attempted this same pattern on a gk.0 scout and got the same results, the Allotek PLC (85 CPU with Fitting Opt. 3) whose Fitting Optimization skill reduces CPU rather than PG also seems to be affected by this issue but instead it seems to further reduce the amount of CPU it consumes rather than increase it example: Ishukone NK's (44 CPU) + Allotek PLC (85 CPU) should = 129 CPU and 6 PG... but it takes 128 CPU instead (PG remains at 6).
Though small, this issue can hinder the creation of fits like it did to me this day. I'm sadly a bit short on time today and I can't try different things to see if this issue extends to other suits though i suspect it may also hinder the Logistics class thank's to their class bonus. If anyone who's specced into the logi class could verify this it would be appreciated. Thank's for reading o7
P.S. Sorry for no TL;DR I really think this should be read at your own pace until you get what I'm trying to say. so, the tldr here is the scales are broken? |
Jaran Vilktar
Ultimate Spawn Smart Deploy
231
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 20:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Jaran Vilktar wrote:I've recently skilled into Nova Knife Fitting Optimization 2 in hopes of making my Ishukone NK's cost only 6 PG to fit. According to the game they should only cost 6 PG and when I mount them on an empty frame they do in fact cost 6 PG but when I attempt to fit them on a particular fit they go back to costing 7 PG instead... I got suspicious about this odd occurrence so I began to tinker with my fittings and discovered what I believe may be a serious issue with the games ability to apply the effects of Fitting Optimization and Skills such as the Fitting requirement reduction skills you get for the Cloak Field on Scouts when 2 or more items that rely on these types of skills are added to the same fitting.
Here's an example of this, I have AR Fitting Optimization 1 and NK Fitting Optimization at 2, PLC Fitting Optimization 3 with mk.0 and gk.0 Scouts.
Apply an NK to my empty mk.0 scout and get 44/6, so far so good. I then can apply items to any part of my suit to fill it up and if you count the items fitting costs they all add up, just as they should. Now, when I apply my Duvolle AR to my fit I should only have to pay 12 PG to fit it instead of 13 yet, after managing my PG points I add up the numbers and I notice my AR took 13 PG instead of 12 and a similar issue happens when I add a cloak field to my suit. I Make another empty frame with my mk.0 scout but this time only fit an ARN-18 Cloak Field (11 PG with any Scout at Level 5), a Duvolle AR (12 PG with Fitting Opt. 1) and a set of Ishukone NK's (6 PG with Fitting Opt. 2). Doing some simple math I should have to end up using 29 PG to fit all of these yet, I end up using 30... I mess around with these 3 items, when only 1 of any of these is on the frame the numbers add up but when I add another one I seem to pay 1 PG more than I should and when I pair an Ishukone NK and Duvolle AR I pay 19 PG when I should only pay 18. I then add an advanced Cloak to the fit and get a 30 PG count (19 + 11 = 30 working as intended). When I applied any 2 of these 3 items to my fit the PG of the second item I added was added to the fit in full without accounting for the fitting reduction skills and the 3rd item was applied as it should be. I attempted this same pattern on a gk.0 scout and got the same results, the Allotek PLC (85 CPU with Fitting Opt. 3) whose Fitting Optimization skill reduces CPU rather than PG also seems to be affected by this issue but instead it seems to further reduce the amount of CPU it consumes rather than increase it example: Ishukone NK's (44 CPU) + Allotek PLC (85 CPU) should = 129 CPU and 6 PG... but it takes 128 CPU instead (PG remains at 6).
Though small, this issue can hinder the creation of fits like it did to me this day. I'm sadly a bit short on time today and I can't try different things to see if this issue extends to other suits though i suspect it may also hinder the Logistics class thank's to their class bonus. If anyone who's specced into the logi class could verify this it would be appreciated. Thank's for reading o7
P.S. Sorry for no TL;DR I really think this should be read at your own pace until you get what I'm trying to say. so, the tldr here is the scales are broken? I don't think their broken, the game subtracts the correct value of every item you add to a fitting but it seems like it's ignoring the fitting opttimization skills of 1 item in a fitting when 2 or more items with skills that reduce the fitting requirements of said item are dropped into the same fitting... HEY! I think that I just made a decent TL;DR! XD
I can't believe I did it. 514 Logins
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
11
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Posted - 2015.06.07 20:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
This is a commonly known problem in the game and it's especially well known among veteran nova knifers. For now, we just train up the nova knife fitting optimization skill book to level 3 and nothing more. Another problem with this is that percentages being applied on very small numbers (single digits in this case) just further exacerbates the situation.
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SHERIFF joe arapio
US Border Patrol
116
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Posted - 2015.06.07 20:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shadowed Cola wrote:Jaran Vilktar wrote:I've recently skilled into Nova Knife Fitting Optimization 2 in hopes of making my Ishukone NK's cost only 6 PG to fit. According to the game they should only cost 6 PG and when I mount them on an empty frame they do in fact cost 6 PG but when I attempt to fit them on a particular fit they go back to costing 7 PG instead... I got suspicious about this odd occurrence so I began to tinker with my fittings and discovered what I believe may be a serious issue with the games ability to apply the effects of Fitting Optimization and Skills such as the Fitting requirement reduction skills you get for the Cloak Field on Scouts when 2 or more items that rely on these types of skills are added to the same fitting.
Here's an example of this, I have AR Fitting Optimization 1 and NK Fitting Optimization at 2, PLC Fitting Optimization 3 with mk.0 and gk.0 Scouts.
Apply an NK to my empty mk.0 scout and get 44/6, so far so good. I then can apply items to any part of my suit to fill it up and if you count the items fitting costs they all add up, just as they should. Now, when I apply my Duvolle AR to my fit I should only have to pay 12 PG to fit it instead of 13 yet, after managing my PG points I add up the numbers and I notice my AR took 13 PG instead of 12 and a similar issue happens when I add a cloak field to my suit. I Make another empty frame with my mk.0 scout but this time only fit an ARN-18 Cloak Field (11 PG with any Scout at Level 5), a Duvolle AR (12 PG with Fitting Opt. 1) and a set of Ishukone NK's (6 PG with Fitting Opt. 2). Doing some simple math I should have to end up using 29 PG to fit all of these yet, I end up using 30... I mess around with these 3 items, when only 1 of any of these is on the frame the numbers add up but when I add another one I seem to pay 1 PG more than I should and when I pair an Ishukone NK and Duvolle AR I pay 19 PG when I should only pay 18. I then add an advanced Cloak to the fit and get a 30 PG count (19 + 11 = 30 working as intended). When I applied any 2 of these 3 items to my fit the PG of the second item I added was added to the fit in full without accounting for the fitting reduction skills and the 3rd item was applied as it should be. I attempted this same pattern on a gk.0 scout and got the same results, the Allotek PLC (85 CPU with Fitting Opt. 3) whose Fitting Optimization skill reduces CPU rather than PG also seems to be affected by this issue but instead it seems to further reduce the amount of CPU it consumes rather than increase it example: Ishukone NK's (44 CPU) + Allotek PLC (85 CPU) should = 129 CPU and 6 PG... but it takes 128 CPU instead (PG remains at 6).
Though small, this issue can hinder the creation of fits like it did to me this day. I'm sadly a bit short on time today and I can't try different things to see if this issue extends to other suits though i suspect it may also hinder the Logistics class thank's to their class bonus. If anyone who's specced into the logi class could verify this it would be appreciated. Thank's for reading o7
P.S. Sorry for no TL;DR I really think this should be read at your own pace until you get what I'm trying to say. so, the tldr here is the scales are broken?
LOL go figure. Nothing to see here folks. Working as intended and expected. |
deezy dabest
2
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Posted - 2015.06.08 07:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
OP what you are seeing is that fitting optimization skills leave a decimal after the main number like 6.4 for example.
Once you apply this with a weapon that also has fitting optimization on it with a total like 6.3 the total becomes 12.7 which is then rounded up giving you the extra PG use that you are seeing. It is a pretty broken mechanic that happens when you apply percents to whole numbers and then drop decimals through rounding. |
IAmDuncanIdaho II
Nos Nothi
2
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Posted - 2015.06.08 07:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
It does seem silly that this last skill in the tree per weapon is useless unless you fit something with a base of 4 or more, and even then it's incredibly inefficient.
Take Maken's point about Nova Knives as an example - the IshNoks have a base PG of 7. There is *no* point skilling optimisation past 3 because the decimals don't count.
L3 = 15% of 7 = 1.05 reduction <---- gain 1 PG L5 = 25% of 7 = 1.75 <-----------------gain 1 PG
[edit]
If I've understood the rest of the thread correctly, this actually would mean a *penalty* if taking that skill higher due to it accumulating with other decimals from other weapon optimisations. |
deezy dabest
2
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Posted - 2015.06.08 07:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:It does seem silly that this last skill in the tree per weapon is useless unless you fit something with a base of 4 or more, and even then it's incredibly inefficient.
Take Maken's point about Nova Knives as an example - the IshNoks have a base PG of 7. There is *no* point skilling optimisation past 3 because the decimals don't count.
L3 = 15% of 7 = 1.05 reduction <---- gain 1 PG L5 = 25% of 7 = 1.75 <-----------------gain 1 PG
The skill applies but only when used in conjunction with another weapon that is also in the same boat.
Base PG 7 L3 = 5.95 L5 = 5.25
Now when using 2 weapons of the same numbers
5.95 * 2 = 11.9 (12 when fitting) 5.25*2 = 10.5 (11 when fitting)
So from your base of 14 level 3 gains you 2 PG while level 5 on both gains you 3 PG. Given in most current cases 1 PG is not going to make a huge difference but in some cases it can. Instead of calling it useless we will just call it seriously underwhelming. When using 2 weapons of different PG numbers it can make a slightly larger difference thanks to rounding but I do not feel like crunching a bunch of numbers to show it more in depth. |
THUNDERGROOVE
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
1
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Posted - 2015.06.08 07:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fitting is stored as a decimal not an integer. It doesn't round for anything but the fitting screen.
The enemies of God stand broken before us. The light of the Reclaiming shines over them!
12/13/14 Never forget
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
1
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Posted - 2015.06.08 07:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
And this is not limited to Nova Knives. They just have one of the sillier (no insult intended) examples.
The entire game is based on floating point numbers rounding via truncation. Which means you think it might round up when a value is at 1.6. Sure your school taught you to round up at 1.5 or above. However, Dust514 is generated by CCP. And as is consistent with their attitude regarding giving their players anything at all - they truncate. 1.5 = 1. 1.6 = 1.
This rounding solution is valid, and MSFT uses it as the default in the compiler. Which might be where this mindset (such as it is) started. Regardless, high level skills do not reward well. Spend SP with caution. If you think CCP has your back, remember that they have a shiv that needs a home. Tag, you're it.
Or - shank - you're dead.
Welcome to Dust.
My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
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deezy dabest
2
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Posted - 2015.06.08 07:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Fitting is stored as a decimal not an integer. It doesn't round for anything but the fitting screen.
This opens up a whole world of possibilities which makes you wonder why in the world they would do it this way.
With no rounding in place that would mean that 1 level of fitting optimization would make a difference when you assume that actual PG / CPU limits work the same way.
This whole thing just makes me shake my head at CCP. This is just another reason why new players never have a chance in the game. Expecting them to figure out things we as vets can not even agree on while they are getting pro stomped in every match is just plain nuts.
CCP either get rid of the fitting optimization skill or add decimal points on the fitting screen. |
deezy dabest
2
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Posted - 2015.06.08 07:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
I suppose the conclusion of this thread is just that the skills are not bugged at all just that CCP once again embodies cant code properly and a total lack of communication on basic mechanics or the ability to make anything in game user friendly at all.
/ thread
This thread is now about hamsters using an abacus to decide the CPU/PG of suits. |
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