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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
1
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Posted - 2015.05.29 20:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
I believe there should be some change in paradigm as to which race has what speed based on EVE Online. Dust 514 gets it quite right but I feel there is still something that needs to be done.
How I believe speed profiles should be: Fastest to Slowest
- Minmatar: In EVE Online and in Dust they are the fastest race. In eve this translates into them being able to control the distance of the battle also known as kiting. In Dust it means them getting everywhere fast and just out-pacing the hell out of everyone.
To get a better picture of how this is, the minmatar would be the 400 meter sprint experts. Their speed should be overall lower than gallente but made up by increased stamina and stamina recovery. This means that they can outpace everyone, everywhere anytime. The combat rifle with its short to long range capabilities can pair with this suit perfectly.
- Gallente: In EVE Online they are the highest dps ships with the shortest range but they make up for it with huge bursts of speed to fill in the gaps. In dust the former is true. They have the highest overall dps with the shortest overall range but they lack the speed to close the gaps. This make gallente suits with assault rifles simply less desireable and why many times you simply see them with rails or combat rifles.
The analog for this in real life would be the 100 dash. They have huge surges of speed but not for long. The overall max speed of the gallente should be higher than minmatar but the stamina and stamina recovery should be around two fifths (2/5) that of the minmatar. Even with a complex cardiac they would not reach the base stamina or stamina recovery of the minmatar and will overall be outrun.
Rational:
Gallente suits are not suited for cqc combat, lacking the speed to close short distances being forced to use rail rifles or combat rifles. The suit just doesnt support the Gallente get close and get rekt paradigm that we see in EVE online where even the largest ships can close short distances very quickly to get the dps en.
Some might argue that in eve online they can use rails and blasters just as effectively and you would be half right. You see when you use rails on a gallente ship you are basically neutering a would be beast. In dust however, they do not have bonuses analogous to both blaster amd rail technology. They just have bonuses to blaster and the suit does not accomodate for that.
- Caldari: These are the cows of EVE online... Seriously horrible max speeds and align times (good missile and rail boats though drake and eagle respectavely). These ships are comfortable at long ranges and their bonuses are toward range mostly)
In Dust: The second slowest of the 4. Its speed should be faster than amarr but lower stamina and stamina regen. These are the 1,400 meter sprinters.
- Amarr: the second slowest race in eve online they rely heavily on laser tech. Pulse lasers are good but long distance lasers suit them better. Not an amarr ship expert so not much to say.
In Dust: the slowest race but the highest stamina. These are the marathon runners of dust. what they lack in speed they make up in stamina. Minmatar surpasses their movement capabilities by simple out stamina regen and speed capabilities. Being able to sprint more times and at fater intervals.
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
1
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Posted - 2015.05.29 23:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:All fairly good information. The biggest thing that DUST needs to get away from is having racial/role speed profiles overlapping.
There's no excuse for the Minmatar assault being faster than the Amarr scout.
There's no excuse for the assaults and logistics having different speeds for different roles.
I'm okay with a Minmatar suit of the same role being faster than the others but there should be no role overlapping. It makes for power creeps where one suit can not only do it's job but other suit's jobs better as a result.
Ok there is one point I want to make out here. You are corret about minny assault being faster than amarr scout but if the minny assault is fit purely for speed while the amarr scout is stacked then I have no problem. You see, in new eden; at least in some cases; a ship that is fit for speed can outpace a smaller size ship that isnt. For example a well fit stabber with a Microwarp drive can outrun a frigate fit with an afterburner. (Was true a few years back dont know where its at now).
My point is you are correct if its only for unfit profiles but not if fitings come into play. Maxed speed light suits should never be outrun by maxed speed assaults (talking distance vs time)
But I have no problem with a max speed assault outrunning a non speed modded ferroscale using amarr scout
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
1
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Posted - 2015.05.29 23:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Damnit, I thought the RL examples would be "Minmatar are black. Therefore, they run fast"
Anyhow, good thread, and Rattati said they're planning on correcting the Gallente by buffing sprint speed and nerfing stamina.
I also don't understand the complaints about gallente assault rifle range: I use them on my min logi, and they have plenty of range for your more urban engagements. They might even have a little more range than is intended (and will ahve moreso with the coming update) because the high DPS counters the damage falloff to a point.
Not complaining about range. Talking about how the suit does not accomodate for it. Close in fast get rekt is what I mean. Rails and combat rifles are more usefull because they lack the need to close the gap. Since blasters are gallente tech, the suit should help close small engagement distances
Instead of ccp increasing the range
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
1
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Posted - 2015.05.29 23:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:THUNDERGROOVE wrote:All fairly good information. The biggest thing that DUST needs to get away from is having racial/role speed profiles overlapping.
There's no excuse for the Minmatar assault being faster than the Amarr scout.
There's no excuse for the assaults and logistics having different speeds for different roles.
I'm okay with a Minmatar suit of the same role being faster than the others but there should be no role overlapping. It makes for power creeps where one suit can not only do it's job but other suit's jobs better as a result. Ok there is one point I want to make out here. You are corret about minny assault being faster than amarr scout but if the minny assault is fit purely for speed while the amarr scout is stacked then I have no problem. You see, in new eden; at least in some cases; a ship that is fit for speed can outpace a smaller size ship that isnt. For example a well fit stabber with a Microwarp drive can outrun a frigate fit with an afterburner. (Was true a few years back dont know where its at now). My point is you are correct if its only for unfit profiles but not if fitings come into play. Maxed speed light suits should never be outrun by maxed speed assaults (talking distance vs time) But I have no problem with a max speed assault outrunning a non speed modded ferroscale using amarr scout Yeah no. Base is faster. That's the problem. I get ran down by Minmatar assault in 2xkinetic catalyzer fits. Because not only is it possible but it's actually easier to fit on the Minmatar assault. Sure I have more stamina but the Minmatar assault's stamina regens so fast it's arguably a non-issue. The suit as it currently stands plays the scout role better, with more HP. All EWAR but damps and active scans are dead. And sure, the Stabber will be faster than an AB frigate. But the Stabber also is likely to have a full high-grade snakes set and Tengu Skirmish links. 
Implants are included in max fit. A frigate pilot with snakes can be outrun by a stabber pilot with snakes in the scenario I posted... So I believe and, not because I want to oppose you, that my statement about stabber vs frigate still rings true.
BTW you are correct in saying that assaults play betyer scouts than scouts. I use a full kincat 1 stamina mod and get better results than with my gall scout. I would simply give scouts a role bonus to include kncats and cardiac regulators
Edit: if its still an issue afyer the assault speed changes
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 00:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Nerfing biotics by 25 percent and tagging it back onto ALL light frames would be nice as well. I'm also pretty sure the upcoming speed changes won't be the end of assaults as most are worried about. People fear change above almost all else. Especially in their favorite video games they no life on 
I like this idea
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 07:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:EVE Online speeds are related to point and click space ships.
Exactly what besides the width of an Amarr backside even remotely resembles a space ship in this game?
Answer, nothing any Merc can use or deploy.
Race values. It has nothing to due with ship analogues. Its their war paradigm of you will. Their battle mechanocs etc. Weaponry is heavily related to EVE Online, specifically the distances and damage profiles to a very small degree since in eve you can change your damage type on most ships to an extent
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XxGhazbaranxX
Eternal Beings
1
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Posted - 2015.05.30 08:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:Hi, I believe there should be some change in paradigm as to which race has what speed based on EVE Online. Dust 514 gets it quite right but I feel there is still something that needs to be done. How I believe speed profiles should be: Fastest to Slowest
- Minmatar: In EVE Online and in Dust they are the fastest race. In eve this translates into them being able to control the distance of the battle also known as kiting. In Dust it means them getting everywhere fast and just out-pacing the hell out of everyone.
To get a better picture of how this is, the minmatar would be the 400 meter sprint experts. Their speed should be overall lower than gallente but made up by increased stamina and stamina recovery. This means that they can outpace everyone, everywhere anytime. The combat rifle with its short to long range capabilities can pair with this suit perfectly.
- Gallente: In EVE Online they are the highest dps ships with the shortest range but they make up for it with huge bursts of speed to fill in the gaps. In dust the former is true. They have the highest overall dps with the shortest overall range but they lack the speed to close the gaps. This make gallente suits with assault rifles simply less desireable and why many times you simply see them with rails or combat rifles.
The analog for this in real life would be the 100 dash. They have huge surges of speed but not for long. The overall max speed of the gallente should be higher than minmatar but the stamina and stamina recovery should be around two fifths (2/5) that of the minmatar. Even with a complex cardiac they would not reach the base stamina or stamina recovery of the minmatar and will overall be outrun.
Rational:
Gallente suits are not suited for cqc combat, lacking the speed to close short distances being forced to use rail rifles or combat rifles. The suit just doesnt support the Gallente get close and get rekt paradigm that we see in EVE online where even the largest ships can close short distances very quickly to get the dps en.
Some might argue that in eve online they can use rails and blasters just as effectively and you would be half right. You see when you use rails on a gallente ship you are basically neutering a would be beast. In dust however, they do not have bonuses analogous to both blaster amd rail technology. They just have bonuses to blaster and the suit does not accomodate for that.
- Caldari: These are the cows of EVE online... Seriously horrible max speeds and align times (good missile and rail boats though drake and eagle respectavely). These ships are comfortable at long ranges and their bonuses are toward range mostly)
In Dust: The second slowest of the 4. Its speed should be faster than amarr but lower stamina and stamina regen. These are the 1,400 meter sprinters.
- Amarr: the second slowest race in eve online they rely heavily on laser tech. Pulse lasers are good but long distance lasers suit them better. Not an amarr ship expert so not much to say.
In Dust: the slowest race but the highest stamina. These are the marathon runners of dust. what they lack in speed they make up in stamina. Minmatar surpasses their movement capabilities by simple out stamina regen and speed capabilities. Being able to sprint more times and at fater intervals.
Hmmmmmm I wouldn't say the Minmatar Kite in EVE...... the Omen, Coercer, and Slicer (all being Amarrian vessels) are considered some of the most potent kiters in the game. Most Min ships I tend to encounter don't want to kite, they want to brawl up close. Minmatar alpha like mother ******* though. Amarr IMO do kiting better than Min ships being able to outrange them with Scorch Pulse Laser Ammo. Also for reference Min Ships get the short end of the stick when it comes to Armour Plate Mass Penalties. Also tend to suffer from sigbloom from MWDs....but all ships do. Not saying they can't kite just that I've never seen one do it.
Yes because current fitting paradigms change with flavors of the month. Strategies keep changing so ships used have to keep changing. I remember when stagabonds were the flavor of the month. Most of the speed of the vagabond half the price bla bla bla.
As for alpha on arties yes. They hit like bricks and is unfortunately the tactic that has been used for a long time to overcome reps but, solos and small fleets cn use better tactics.
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