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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
19
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Posted - 2015.05.26 08:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sorry but teiricide is a tool to increase variety. Making suit 1 equally appealing to suit 2 instead of suit 1 always being better than suits 2 through 24 because of superior stats.
EvE online had a problem with cruisers and frigates in this manner a tear 1 combat cruiser had half the slots of a tier 3 cruiser. Yes the two ships had different roles but because of a forced teiricide rule the tier one was not even allowed to be buffed past tier 1 requirements to even begin to compete against tier 3 or 4 cruisers.
EvE destroyed these tiers and now all cruisers are viable in their own roles and equally valued.
This is not codifying the game. It's eveifYing it more as your skills which reduce specific weapon and module fittings are now going to more heavily weighed in overall scheme of th8ngs.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.26 18:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:So does the dropsuit still cost isk or not? This is CCP Z's fanfest proposal for 'you are your dropsuit' with the skill progression removed.
CCP Z's model basically Wowified the various suits into their own classes with branching progression as you climbed their tree however unlike eve or dust 514 the things you could fit where pre determined by the tree skill unlocks instead of full freedom we currently enjoy. Suits would have become BPOs in this model as they're supposed to be player representation and should have more attachment value than currently expressed than eve online's ships even.
There are merits and there are bad things about the model.
Bad things is removing the freedom to make bad mistakes.
Bad things is now you have to pit one role against another role as a whole when it comes to balancing this becomes an intricate headache of a larger magnitude requiring a deep control of the entire picture something to which CCP Rattati would be needing reinforcements to accomplish in a very smooth manner.
Good things are the BPO suits; yes it seems uneve like but considering how often a player dies in dust 514 its a bit disheartening psychologically to have everything die every time. Cores piggybacks this idea into not only accomplishing a sense of attachment but retains the eve demanded costs of risks and risk evaluations. Bottom line - funner than eve but retains eve like characteristics thus ergo Dust 514 goal met.
Another good thing I would like to see brought in is the tree training; not as a mandatory thing but as a recommendation and optional way of developing your role and various kinds of subroles players come up with. A training regiment; you will still be able to frakenstien your suits but the idea of the training tree is to help explain to new players as to why this role fit is synergized. Like due to this suit having large amount of low slots and semi natural high speed armor plate tanking may be viable option significantly raising hp without using more useful precious high slots for more utilitarian things to also help survive such as more advanced sensors.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.26 19:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Avallo Kantor wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Another good thing I would like to see brought in is the tree training; not as a mandatory thing in what CCP Z would suggest; but as a recommendation and optional way of developing your role and various kinds of subroles players come up with. A training regiment, if you will. Players will still be able to frakenstien your suits but the idea of the training tree is to help explain to new players as to why this role fit is synergized. Like due to this suit having large amount of low slots and semi natural high speed armor plate tanking may be viable option significantly raising hp without using more useful precious high slots for more utilitarian things to also help survive such as more advanced sensors. Then I would lace it with rewards, and active goals (kill 100 players as an assault caldari suit; assist in 50 kills with mass driver ect ect) Free BPOs free skins free isk and free aur gear for previewing more powerful things.
Wouldn't this be easier by having some sort of persistant missions, rather like what was done with the recent triathlon challenge? Think of a second mission panel with missions that don't expire, and do the things you describe. Perhaps with missions that only appear after other missions have been completed, etc? [Sorry, don't mean to derail the thread]
easier does not mean proper; a proper feature would have this place as an easily cataloged, editable, and extendable format.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.26 21:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:
In terms of my personal playstyle, power cores are a net gain. In terms of my investment in New Eden, magic bpo dropsuits are a net loss. In terms of the player experience in Dust, power cores are valuable if they improve performance/content.
How much, in terms of in-match frames per second, menu loading times & new assets, will implementing power cores bring to Dust?
OK, they cost one ISK because they are mass manufactured and the power comes from the modules that are expensive. Now they are no longer BPO's. Does it change anything in the economy? No. Does it no longer violate New Eden's rule of no BPO's. Yes. Then it must be better, right? The real question is do we someday want players in New Eden manufacturing Dust assets from in-game resources? When i say immersion-breaking that's really what i'm getting at - the idea that someday we will be integrated with EVE. In which case the 1 ISK dropsuit doesn't make much sense, except in an arbitrary technical 'letter of the law' sense. Why not design Dust in a way that is consistent with the universe it's embedded in? I want you to do something: Do some research of what 1 ISK is supposed to be worth in New Eden. Hint: You could buy Google with 1 ISK, from what I last read. 1 ISK is not peanuts. That's why the BPO makes sense - 1 ISK is nothing to immortals, meaning that our employers are likely to just throw the suits at us for free, as the complicated parts are in the power core. At the same time, even a BPO (i.e. a suit that is so cheap that you don't even calculate its value) suit might be 0.01 ISK, which would still be an insane amount of money for any non-immortal. Enough to buy your own ******* island or something like that. Always keep in mind the scale. Just look at your real clothes. A shirt is ten bucks, maybe. The material for the shirt is maybe one buck. And then there's two cents or so that go to the person who made your shirt. Ten bucks is nothing for you and for two bucks, you'd buy t-shirts in bulk. The two cents for assembling the shirt are so cheap that you'd consider them a rounding error. You'd throw those two cents away if they didn't fit into your wallet. The price of the shirt stems entirely from the material and the shipping. The assembly never factors into it. And that's exactly how BPO dropsuits work. The price of the dropsuit is so neglegible that it's nothing to an immortal. Meanwhile, the person who assembled your t-shirt actually considers two cents per shirt to be real pay. Similar to how 1 ISK could buy you Greece. Note: I took these numbers out of thin air and based them on past exploitation scandals. I have no idea if they are actually that bad, or even worse.
Dust 514 isk is valued different than eve online isk. Eve online isk is about 12,000 isk to retire a family in a comfortable middle class life to give some form of measure. Dust 514 isk about 1/10th ratio so 120,000 isk to retire a family.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.26 21:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sole Fenychs wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Dust 514 isk is valued different than eve online isk. Eve online isk is about 12,000 isk to retire a family in a comfortable middle class life to give some form of measure. Dust 514 isk about 1/10th ratio so 120,000 isk to retire a family.
Looks like I had a bad source. I still think 1 ISK to retire a family is more fun. It would mean that any mercenary could retire at any time with a hidden shelf full of weapons, each worth more than the collective income of all of the people in his city. But they don't do that, because why sip a drink on your private island when you can get murdered fifteen times a day and start drag racing across explosions? And don't forget hunting down Thale's snipers. That's the best thing in life.
1 isk would likely feed you for a week to month depending what kind of food you buy or where you buy it from.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.27 01:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
thor424 wrote:ou've got it backwards. It's about 12-15 Eve ISK for 1 Dust ISK. It's much harder to earn ISK in Dust. I guess all that scaled down technology and people less willing to die thousands of times, from what I've read it's painful.
No dust isk is less valued than eve isk. Eve isk 125-1k isk buys a luxury LAV equivalent we spend nearly 10x of that for a combat version.
Just because you are immortal doesn't mean you get paid as same as the captains.
Cost of running a fleet equivalent for a capsuleer.
1 capsuleer battleship crewed with 2,000 crew averages the effectiveness of 20 fully manned naval battleships. Average crew per naval battleship 12,000 crewmen to include officers, NCOs, and enlisted patrons. All whom require wage, food, administration, morale, medical, and finally insurance for end of life and retirement.
Capsuleer ships have no need for Officers, nor NCOs most senior position would be chief of a specified system. What a company saves in NOT hiring an entire battle fleet a portion of it goes to paying the suicidal crew while the contracting corp and capsuleer split the rest of the savings.
Dust 514 immortal soldiers are equated to about 50 soldiers give or take. Special Forces. We're cost savings due to the fact we're 100% always spun up but most of our spun up costs are sustained by our own actions and thus we pay for most of it most of the time. Logistics of moving entire battlillions their equipment, training, naval escort, makes use very finetely cheaper than mortal soldiers but not in the order and magnitude of isk saved for our naval equivalents Also because we are hired a band at a time of 16 immortal soldiers the contract is then split up. Then also considering planet side based industry is much cheaper to deploy and employ vs the space born operations plopping a new SI down is cheaper than buying a new cruiser as the stuff self assembled and is mostly prefabbed.
Then clean up costs. Oh the cleanup costs.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.27 02:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Suits before cores and skins
Small MLT
Small NEO STD
Small STD
Small NEO ADV
Small ADV
Small NEO PRO
Small PRO
+Variants of all colors and sizes
Scout NEO MLT (model physics sounds actor and more)
Scout MLT
Scout NEO STD
Scout STD
Scout NEO ADV
Scout ADV
Scout NEO PRO
Scout PRO
+Variants, Colored, Officers
After Skins and Cores
Small Suit (model physics sounds actor and more)
Scout Suit
Officer Scout Suits
MLT Small Core (no need for model physics sounds ect ect)
STD Small Core
NEO ADV Small Core
ADV Small Core
NEO PRO Small Core
PRO Small Core
Variant Skins (baked into the suits above)
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.27 10:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Fixed slot progression will require, I don't see a way around it, a limit of 1 PG and CPU upgrade per fitting, or make them to ISK expensive to stack. Either that or make sure that having an 8 slot std dropsuit (instead of 4 before) does not get you above Proto fittings.
Think about it!
I have been thinking and the more I think about it the more I am going have to say that I think this fear is unfounded; the apex of player ability; is to have the knowledge; and skill in this game to be able to run and run effectively at isk costs and fitting; trading off proper modules for gains and advantages and this scenario would actually justify the use of CPU and PG modules as they're no longer not paying their slot consumption weight barely but being able to enjoy it further out for higher grade modules elsewhere. A second or third fitting module would simply make it a std slot layout with full adv-proto mix.
Even if a highly skilled veteran where to make an unusual glass house fit to get a performance not normally seen at that 'tier' a lesser skilled player can attempt to mimic the setup using weaker gear but having access to the same slots can empower the player to achieve semi-relatable performance instead of a gulf of impossibility.
There are ways to balance this fear out though; you can simply adjust the fitting modules; make officers/experimental harder to fit so that only prototype suits would fancy fitting them; adding additional module fitting skills to modules that do not currently enjoy them and much more.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.27 11:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Fixed slot progression will require, I don't see a way around it, a limit of 1 PG and CPU upgrade per fitting, or make them to ISK expensive to stack. Either that or make sure that having an 8 slot std dropsuit (instead of 4 before) does not get you above Proto fittings.
Think about it! transfer the PG/CPU function entirely to the cores and phase out the STD and ADV suits. Make three tiers of core per suit class, (9 total ISK cores) for heavy, medium and light. a STD core plus 4 pg upgrades and 4 cpu upgrades is much higher than a proto core, if I use std and pro dropsuit values and 4 and 8 slots comparatively
if a suit with std core had 5 highs and 5 lows and 4 and 4 are fitted with the cpu and pg upgrades you just effectively made a 1H 1L suit that can fit anything which isnt that much better than a pro core fitted suit that can fit multiple proto and experimentals.
Slot weight CCP Rattati please factor that in that any slot consumed by the fitting module is effectively lost.
Two MLT modules in many cases are better than one proto module sadly in a large variety of cases this is why in general fitting modules are not popular on the simple grounds that they eat an entire slot of that is better off spent putting a far weaker module into it rather than upgrading another; this perception of fitting modules being a problem is only present in a few cases where the functionality of a higher module (proto only weapon variant) or the opportunity provided by a proto (vehicle hardeners timers having overlap) had been the only issues so far concerning having too many of a proto module. Most infantry modules cannot suffer this.
Also if I remember the consideration in making CPU and PG modules more % based a stacking penalty can be easily applied in thoery if its that much of a concern.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.27 11:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
most of my pilot suits are either empty or mobility based scouts
point is that such gimmick suits are severly weak in something if they fit that many cpu or PG or they're going to be out of one or the other with the steeper cost in each other's resources.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.27 11:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:most of my pilot suits are either empty or mobility based scouts
point is that such gimmick suits are severly weak in something if they fit that many cpu or PG or they're going to be out of one or the other with the steeper cost in each other's resources. i use the proxies to defend against suicide jeeps
I should fit a hack suit around you.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.27 11:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
DeathwindRising wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:most of my pilot suits are either empty or mobility based scouts
point is that such gimmick suits are severly weak in something if they fit that many cpu or PG or they're going to be out of one or the other with the steeper cost in each other's resources.
I mean sniper fit? good luck shoving all those damage slot into the high slots with cpu mods sharing the same slot rack. PG issues can be absolved by not even fitting the lows at all. cpu mods are low slots. you must not use them lol 1 complex cpu mod is enough to fit a a proto sniper rifle and if you use the LP variant then you can also fit damage mods pretty easily as well. and you only need to fit two damage mods as stacking penalties dont make extras beyond that worth it
No because the slot consumption is too high; I get more suit performance from fitting a weaker module than trying to get one module to proto.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
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Posted - 2015.05.27 12:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:My main worry was that it could be exploited, not necessarily in terms of "same as proto", but maybe comparably good as ADV for the price of STD.
Keep it going, I can always increase the ISK cost of them to fight stacking.
There is a much higher possibility that players can run proto effective fits at adv core or std core through fitting skills taking effect. Or players achieving all they want in a fit even at std than using fitting modules at odd angle of exploit.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.05.28 09:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
One player should always equal another player regardless of what weapon they're using or what suit they're in or what platform they're loaded into.
From there you add the variations of skill of the players, gear quality, and gear variety.
When you're done the value of one player should still be the value of any other player.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.05.29 05:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:One player should always equal another player regardless of what weapon they're using or what suit they're in or what platform they're loaded into.
From there you add the variations of skill of the players, gear quality, and gear variety.
When you're done the value of one player should still be the value of any other player. Absolutely false. 2 players working together should be better than 3 or more players doing their own thing. Teamwork should make players greater than the sum of their parts. Case in point, a heavy with a logi supporting can stifle an uncoordinated 6-man push given the right positioning. This is a good thing.
Sorry but the value of 2 players should be 2 players valued.
I did not say that 2 players should equal 2 players.
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