DUST Search - Logis should have always been the 2nd fastest suits in Dust..

Ripley Riley wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Is it acceptable that 300-400HP speedy stealth suits are moving at more-or-less the same speed as 600-800HP slayer suits? In the case of speed-tanked MN and GA Assaults, even slower?

Since they perform different roles, yes, I would say it is acceptable that they move at the speeds they do.

Adipem Nothi wrote:

I suspect that Rattati agrees that Assault HP/Speed stats are out-of-balance with those of Scouts. Increasing scout speed would likely detrimentally impact hit detection (see Chromosome). Narrowing the HP gap without upset Assault v Heavy balance. What other options does he have but to lower Assault speed?

I see your points, believe me. You have to acknowledge that the idea of a simultaneous buff AND nerf, which is what switching logi and assault speeds amounts to, seems foolhardy. Remember when CCP nerfed AV while buffing vehicles back in Uprising 1.7*? I don't want to see a repeat of that.

*: I believe it was 1.7. If I'm off please correct me.

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Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 768	Posted - 2015.05.13 12:50:00 - [1] - Quote they have low health, need to be able to move around the battlefield quickly and combat is a secondary role to squad support. although the horribad design that allowed the rise of slayer logi prompted nothing but nerfs. Rattatti has been a godsend tho, so switch the assault logi speed profile. its long overdue. be nice if you bring back the repair indicator while you're at it. The PS2 Whiteboard Project https://docs.google.com/document/d/14yCg0oUUyqJUTCSzIRx4z_dhS1aXHbubI0Hb3H6x5Is/edit
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10096	Posted - 2015.05.13 13:00:00 - [2] - Quote As an assault, it irks me that in order to fix logis CCP had to nerf another role. If logi speed was poor why not just increase it and leave assault speeds alone, let the data flow in on logi survivability and player feedback, and then decide if a nerf to assault movement speed is needed. These buff + nerf combos make me very nervous and go against Rattati's stated goal of "data driven balancing". @Ripley_Riley "Ripley > Soraya" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Sleepy Shadow Qualified Scrub 370	Posted - 2015.05.13 13:15:00 - [3] - Quote Wait... What? Are they actually going to nerf assault speed? =ƒÿ¦
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 768	Posted - 2015.05.13 13:21:00 - [4] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: As an assault, it irks me that in order to fix logis CCP had to nerf another role. If logi speed was poor why not just increase it and leave assault speeds alone, let the data flow in on logi survivability and player feedback, and then decide if a nerf to assault movement speed is needed. These buff + nerf combos make me very nervous and go against Rattati's stated goal of "data driven balancing". we dont disagree with this at all. youll notice we didnt say anything about nerfs but we were told they were considering switching the profiles. increasing the logi speed is paramount. The PS2 Whiteboard Project https://docs.google.com/document/d/14yCg0oUUyqJUTCSzIRx4z_dhS1aXHbubI0Hb3H6x5Is/edit
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 9648	Posted - 2015.05.13 13:28:00 - [5] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: As an assault, it irks me that in order to fix logis CCP had to nerf another role. If logi speed was poor why not just increase it and leave assault speeds alone, let the data flow in on logi survivability and player feedback, and then decide if a nerf to assault movement speed is needed. These buff + nerf combos make me very nervous and go against Rattati's stated goal of "data driven balancing". Is it acceptable that 300-400HP speedy stealth suits are moving at nearly the same speed as 600-800HP slayer suits? Theoretically, increasing scout speed would detrimentally impact hit detection (see Chromosome). What other options does he have? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10096	Posted - 2015.05.13 13:46:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Is it acceptable that 300-400HP speedy stealth suits are moving at more-or-less the same speed as 600-800HP slayer suits? In the case of speed-tanked MN and GA Assaults, even slower? Since they perform different roles, yes, I would say it is acceptable that they move at the speeds they do. Adipem Nothi wrote: I suspect that Rattati agrees that Assault HP/Speed stats are out-of-balance with those of Scouts. Increasing scout speed would likely detrimentally impact hit detection (see Chromosome). Narrowing the HP gap without upset Assault v Heavy balance. What other options does he have but to lower Assault speed? I see your points, believe me. You have to acknowledge that the idea of a simultaneous buff AND nerf, which is what switching logi and assault speeds amounts to, seems foolhardy. Remember when CCP nerfed AV while buffing vehicles back in Uprising 1.7? I don't want to see a repeat of that. : I believe it was 1.7. If I'm off please correct me. @Ripley_Riley "Ripley > Soraya" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1347	Posted - 2015.05.13 13:52:00 - [7] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: As an assault, it irks me that in order to fix logis CCP had to nerf another role. If logi speed was poor why not just increase it and leave assault speeds alone, let the data flow in on logi survivability and player feedback, and then decide if a nerf to assault movement speed is needed. These buff + nerf combos make me very nervous and go against Rattati's stated goal of "data driven balancing". .... did you forget that increasing the speed of suits worsens the hit detection? The whole reason Scouts were reduced was to keep them within useable range. Then there are the ratios of speed inbetween suits. If you can no longer adjust the speeds upward, someone has to slide downward to keep the ratios. Bluntly put, there is no difference in the ratios. Whether the speed goes up or down, the comparative stats are all that really mattered. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10096	Posted - 2015.05.13 13:55:00 - [8] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Did you forget that increasing the speed of suits worsens the hit detection? The whole reason Scouts were reduced was to keep them within usable range. I didn't forget that. I was under the impression that CCP was considering giving logis increased walk/sprint speeds,but I'm pretty sure they aren't going to give them faster-than-scouts-with-kincat speeds. At those levels you can indeed break hit detection, but since we aren't considering those speeds that is not a concern. @Ripley_Riley "Ripley > Soraya" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 842	Posted - 2015.05.13 14:05:00 - [9] - Quote It would be a simultaneous nerf and buff, however: Logis could (probably) do with a small buff to the suit (other than module progression fixes), when compared to scouts, sentinels and commandos. Assaults could do with a small nerf compared to scouts, sentinels and commandos. So swapping speed (not necessarily exactly) would be improving two balance issues. Also, assaults and logis aren't direct counters, so it's not like, for example, nerfing missile turrets and buffing armour tanks, which is where problems tend to occur.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 9658	Posted - 2015.05.13 15:03:00 - [10] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Is it acceptable that 300-400HP speedy stealth suits are moving at more-or-less the same speed as 600-800HP slayer suits? In the case of speed-tanked MN and GA Assaults, even slower? Since they perform different roles, yes, I would say it is acceptable that they move at the speeds they do. Adipem Nothi wrote: I suspect that Rattati agrees that Assault HP/Speed stats are out-of-balance with those of Scouts. Increasing scout speed would likely detrimentally impact hit detection (see Chromosome). Narrowing the HP gap without upset Assault v Heavy balance. What other options does he have but to lower Assault speed? I see your points, believe me. You have to acknowledge that the idea of a simultaneous buff AND nerf, which is what switching logi and assault speeds amounts to, seems foolhardy. Remember when CCP nerfed AV while buffing vehicles back in Uprising 1.7? I don't want to see a repeat of that. : I believe it was 1.7. If I'm off please correct me. Pardon my edit above; same point, words rearranged. Yes, I believe it was 1.7 (and it was terrible). You're absolutely correct that nerfing one side of the equation while buffing the other has caused problems in the past, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it always will. The new team seems to be a 'bit more in-touch than the old. But back to the point, where high-speed and high-hp are simultaneously maximized, we consistently find OP/FoTM. No two factors affect survivability by greater degree, and I think it a good (and intuitive) design goal for there to be a tradeoff between the two. If there are sound arguments to be made to the contrary, I'd very much like to hear them. Jokes: If it is an absolute no-no to touch both sides of the equation, one might suggest keeping Logi speed where it is and dropping Assault speed to a value somewhere below. (jokes!) PS: Sincerely excited to hear that you're considering a run for CPM2; your posts over the years have consistently been tempered, well-thought and/or hilarious. You have my vote and support should you opt to run. o7 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Droopy Bawlz myrtle beach leap frogz 198	Posted - 2015.05.13 15:14:00 - [11] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: As an assault, it irks me that in order to fix logis CCP had to nerf another role. If logi speed was poor why not just increase it and leave assault speeds alone, let the data flow in on logi survivability and player feedback, and then decide if a nerf to assault movement speed is needed. These buff + nerf combos make me very nervous and go against Rattati's stated goal of "data driven balancing". I don't think this buff to logis is all about logis. I think it is to stop the sooper fast min assault. That is all u see in pc. Min assaults with shotguns (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee925OTFBCA
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy Rise Of Legion. 3950	Posted - 2015.05.13 15:17:00 - [12] - Quote Medic from TF2. One of the faster classes in that game. Also, is it possible to make logis walk speed the same as their sprint speed? Cuz you can't sprint while repping, so kincats don't help with slow speed while repping, or is this intended? Sniper Rifles are for Nitrogenous Dioxide Borons First to PM me with common name wins (no Hyansaru, u win too much ;P)
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10112	Posted - 2015.05.13 15:22:00 - [13] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: You're absolutely correct that nerfing one side of the equation while buffing the other has caused problems in the past, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it always will. The new team seems to be a 'bit more in-touch than the old. Admittedly Rattati doesn't seem to be as much of a whack-job as the prior management. He has no idea how to price vanity items, but thankfully that does not cause problems with balancing Adipem Nothi wrote: But back to the point, where high-speed and high-hp are simultaneously maximized, we consistently find OP/FoTM. No two factors affect survivability by greater degree, and I think it a good (and intuitive) design goal for there to be a tradeoff between the two. If there are sound arguments to be made to the contrary, I'd very much like to hear them. I would like to suggest my own twist on this logi movement increase + assault movement decrease... allow assaults to keep our sprint speeds. Assaults storm the point. That's our job: push the objective, fight, and subsequently die. We need that sprint speed to rush forward. Our walk/strafe can be nerfed if that absolutely has to be done, but leave sprint intact. Logis get a buff while the assault role's purpose is preserved. Adipem Nothi wrote: Jokes: If it is an absolute no-no to touch both sides of the equation, one might suggest keeping Logi speed where it is and dropping Assault speed to a value somewhere below. (jokes!) You think you're cute, don't you? Adipem Nothi wrote: PS: Sincerely excited to hear that you're considering a run for CPM2; your posts over the years have been tempered, well-thought and/or hilarious. You have my vote and support should you opt to run. o7 I appreciate the vote of confidence. I am in the process of considering the CPM's effects on my real life schedule. If all looks good, I will absolutely run for CPM2 @Ripley_Riley "Ripley > Soraya" - Arkena Wyrnspire


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