DUST Search - I sense a disturbance in the force

Vesta Opalus wrote:

Varoth Drac wrote:

I made these two proto suits for comparison. Both are pure tanked, rather than dual tanked and are as similar as I could make them whilst being racially appropriate.

Caldari assault

Gallente assault

The Caldari assault has 662 hp and regens shields in 11.8 seconds.
The Gallente assault has 702 hp and regens armour in 17 seconds.

So Gallente has better hp by 40, Caldari has better regen.

Perhaps a better comparison of regen would be what happens if either suit takes 400 damage from full hp.

The Caldari suit will regen fully in 9.7 seconds.
The Gallente suit will regen it's armour in 6.9 seconds, but will not even start regenerating shields until after 10 seconds. It will take the suit 19.7 seconds to return to full hp.

One final thing to consider is the armour regen on the Caldari suit. If the Cal assault loses half it's armour, it will take it over a minute to fully regen.

So in conclusion, I really don't think there's much in it. Caldari also have the option to forgo damage and regen for max shields, Gallente have the option to forgo mobility and fit armour plates. Neither of these options are very good in my opinion, but there we are.

I personally think that if shields should be buffed at all, the buff should go to energizers. Considering the fact that shield suits sacrifice hp for regen when compared to armour, and that they have to contend with a recharge delay, shield energizers could stand a buff. However, I really don't think that shields are nearly as underpowered as some people claim.

Because you are considering things at the dropsuit level, which is a much more even playing field, especially comparing gallente assault vs. caldari assault. Lets consider some other stuff...

Caldari vs. other suits:
Minmatar, not going to give caldari time to regen ever, basically hard countering the supposed advantage of caldari, which is high regen speed, with high speed and comparable hp, the minmatar can apply unyielding pressure on the caldari which will shut down anyone trying to play a regen game.

Amarr, scramblers will just whipe out a shield tnaked suit in t=0, its not even cool how good scramblers and assault scramblers are against shield suits. in addition a single kincat on an amarr will again give them pressure dominance against the caldari which once again removes their regen advantage.

Against scouts:
Scouts will, just like any other faster suit, be able to pressure away the cal's regen advantage, while due to the HP differential it will have a harder time doing this, it can also use ambush and stealth to initiate or escape situations to bend things heavily in its favor. Once again the Cal will not be able to escape or dictate the terms of engagement, which is vital to take advantage of the nature of its "superior" regen.

Against ANYONE WITH A LOGI:
Caldari now has zero advantage, regen advantage is completely overwhelmed by the rep tool which gives more reps per second than you can reasonably fit.

Against ANYONE WITH REP NANOHIVES:
Same as above, though the advantage is easier to remove via flux/marksmanship

In skirmishing:
Higher HP + leisure time to regen due to distance each person needs to travel makes skirmishing, long range play, actually favor the armor tanker, not the shield tanker, and this is where caldari are actually supposed to dominate, and once again the scrambler rifle spoils things as well, since it is deadly at almost any viable range for even the Breach Rail Rifle (which by the way is easily the worst rifle in the game right now)

tl;dr: the overall high level picture for shield suits is pretty grim, they have ONE advantage, regen, that is easily countered by alot of different tactics, and a ton of disadvantages that make them (comparatively) easy pickings for someone who knows what they are doing. The only dedicated shield suit that is any good right now is the Caldari Scout, and even there Im not sure it can claim the crown as best in class since Gal Scout has a better dampening/speed situation.

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Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 146	Posted - 2015.05.12 01:35:00 - [1] - Quote A lot of people are getting really worked up about shields and how viable they really are I have spent some time with different fittings both armor and shields and have tested a lot of these out quite a bit I mostly work with whats available to me and with limited sp I can only do so much what I mostly test is std and adv gear on std dropsuits I have made fittings in which a gallente or amarr get up to 14~22 passive reps per second with their base armor being at ~240+ I have also made fittings in which caldari rep ~70 shield per second but with only about 220+ base shield due to the reduction of shield hp due to penalties of energizers, if you use regulators you get significantly less hp recovery about 55 per second compared to the 70 from energizers but without penalty to shields I am still at 241. with two enhanced regulators I get about 2.8 recharge delay and 3.4 depleted delay whereas armor is always passively reping all my armor and shield skills are even at lvl 3 what I have realized from my testing is that the way armor works makes it difficult to kill targets at range as their armor is always reping trough the damage which makes the ttk way more then when facing a shield repper, this is of course if they are using only reps in lows but even still sacrificing a bit of regen for extra armor only takes away so much and still makes it hard to kill you at range and close up without massive amounts of alpha damage such as that of a shotgun or sniper rifle or maybe even the bolt pistol shields on the other hand have trouble out in the open as they cannot rep trough damage making it difficult to stay in a fight for a prolonged amount of time especially when it comes to laser weaponry, it may be able to regen fast but if it takes any damage that is negated and one flux nade takes away all the shield leaving you defenseless for the most part the one thing caldari can do to stay alive is hide long enough and try not to take damage to get back to full health but when someone is chasing you down even from a distance its hard to rep back up taking even 1 point of damage resets your counter making you have to wait that much longer the good thing about shields is that you can come in and out of cover with the support of team mates so alternating becomes can be a viable tactic in certain situations shield regen vs armor regen, in my eyes armor is more viable not just with the current meta but in overall game play it gives far more advantages over shields regen. shields do have a unique play style that almost requires you to be more cunning then your pray which is what I like about it but it has plenty of drawbacks and the worst drawback of all is recharge delay reset upon taking damage if you make the calculation of how long it takes for a caldari to fully recharge vs an amarr or gallente it takes about 8.4-7.4 for caldari and about 11 for gallente and 20 for amarr the gallante sacrafice armor for regen as they only have 241 armor vs the 276 of amarr and the caldari mirror the gallente at 241 shields this is all taking into account only std dropsuits with enhanced mods, if i get into adv dropsuits and above numbers get a bit crazy and it can make it way harder to comprehend I have left out the min for reasons involving duct tape and its OP factor in space, otherwise known as the space glue effect I made this thread to inform the few that may want something to compare using shields and armor are two different play style options each with its ups and downs, take what you will from this but don't be ignorant and try to factor in most if not all of the variables before proposing anything if shields get a buff it should be something that is complimentary to the intended play style of the caldari that wont affect the other three races as much such as the removal of the penalties and slight buffs to the recharge rates of recharges and energizers or something along those lines as for nerf to armor reps well I think they are in a good place and should not be messed with but if something were to be done then it could be something along the lines of armor reduction penalties meaning if you want more reps you sacrifice some of your tanking strengths, this is not intended to be a nerf or buff thread it is only my opinion as for star wars referencing, may the force be with you all young padawans
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 146	Posted - 2015.05.12 01:36:00 - [2] - Quote Inb4 WORD WALL, TLDR, QQ, TROLOLOLOL, Grammar ****, blah blah blah etc....
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN New Eden's Heros 2202	Posted - 2015.05.12 01:52:00 - [3] - Quote Shield scouts > Armor scouts Shield Assaults < Armor Assaults (min is neither) Shield Heavy < Armor Heavy + Logi Shield Commando< Armor Commando Shield tank< Armor tank. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
Eruditus 920 Nemo Malus Felix 1861	Posted - 2015.05.12 01:52:00 - [4] - Quote points at OP NERD! throws fish sticks "Stay gold, Ponyboy..."
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 146	Posted - 2015.05.12 02:08:00 - [5] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Shield scouts > Armor scouts Shield Assaults < Armor Assaults (min is neither) Shield Heavy < Armor Heavy + Logi Shield Commando< Armor Commando Shield tank< Armor tank. so you are implying that the only good shield based suit that is good is a scout? mind you my consensus was based upon regen and not tank ability nor damage profiles
deezy dabest 2225	Posted - 2015.05.12 11:12:00 - [6] - Quote Sicerly Yaw wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Shield scouts > Armor scouts Shield Assaults < Armor Assaults (min is neither) Shield Heavy < Armor Heavy + Logi Shield Commando< Armor Commando Shield tank< Armor tank. so you are implying that the only good shield based suit that is good is a scout? mind you my consensus was based upon regen and not tank ability nor damage profiles I would totally agree that armor is better than shield in nearly every way. Shield scouts only benefit because tanking does result in a loss of speed and the ability to strafe. It is really a flaw in the overall module design which was originally not meant for how things have ended up. All HP modules need to be a percent of the base HP for the suit. Shield based suits should have no regen delay until depleted. Armor movement penalty needs to be reduced assuming they become % based as recommended above. Shield extenders should result in a profile increase. A new extender could be introduced with a lower % and no profile penalty.
Jack Boost Zarena Family 771	Posted - 2015.05.12 12:16:00 - [7] - Quote > Shield Heavy < Armor Heavy + Logi < Please don't write things like this. Difference there are go more deeper. Anyway 'public thinking' here is like when you use heavy.. you need more people then using HAV. Nice design. Solo shield/armor heavy < solo dempened heavy... but this mean you must use armor type of heavy. I assure you - solo play as heavy is possible, but close to masochism... Shield heavy as caldari is fun anyway but with forge. Not much time left...
Racro 01 Arifistan Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 538	Posted - 2015.05.12 12:24:00 - [8] - Quote balacs assult ck.o 3 complex shield extenders 2 complex shield rechargers 4 complex shield regulators core grenades ishy hives officer BP officer RR last I checked that's a good 750 shield with 85 shield hp regen a second with a .89 sec delay and a depleted delay of .91 come at my shields bro. *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Jack Boost Zarena Family 771	Posted - 2015.05.12 12:27:00 - [9] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: balacs assult ck.o ... come at my shields bro. After 25 RE more ... 'this game is unplayable' ;) Not much time left...
Michael Arck 6239	Posted - 2015.05.12 12:27:00 - [10] - Quote Yes, shields needs to be reworked. Also, shield rep tool needed Both well deserved and overdue for a look at. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain

BLOOD Ruler VOLKOV INDUSTRIES 1822	Posted - 2015.05.12 13:22:00 - [11] - Quote Its A TRAP! No Escaping Reason, No Denying Purpose For We Know Without Purpose We World Not Exist The Purpose Of Life Is To End
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 838	Posted - 2015.05.12 14:23:00 - [12] - Quote I made these two proto suits for comparison. Both are pure tanked, rather than dual tanked and are as similar as I could make them whilst being racially appropriate. Caldari assault Gallente assault The Caldari assault has 662 hp and regens shields in 11.8 seconds. The Gallente assault has 702 hp and regens armour in 17 seconds. So Gallente has better hp by 40, Caldari has better regen. Perhaps a better comparison of regen would be what happens if either suit takes 400 damage from full hp. The Caldari suit will regen fully in 9.7 seconds. The Gallente suit will regen it's armour in 6.9 seconds, but will not even start regenerating shields until after 10 seconds. It will take the suit 19.7 seconds to return to full hp. One final thing to consider is the armour regen on the Caldari suit. If the Cal assault loses half it's armour, it will take it over a minute to fully regen. So in conclusion, I really don't think there's much in it. Caldari also have the option to forgo damage and regen for max shields, Gallente have the option to forgo mobility and fit armour plates. Neither of these options are very good in my opinion, but there we are. I personally think that if shields should be buffed at all, the buff should go to energizers. Considering the fact that shield suits sacrifice hp for regen when compared to armour, and that they have to contend with a recharge delay, shield energizers could stand a buff. However, I really don't think that shields are nearly as underpowered as some people claim.
Username Alpha Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2015.05.13 03:47:00 - [13] - Quote @ OP: Would you be happy if shields got the same HP bonus, same repair rate, and same movement penalty as armor?
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 703	Posted - 2015.05.13 04:56:00 - [14] - Quote Sicerly Yaw wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Shield scouts > Armor scouts Shield Assaults < Armor Assaults (min is neither) Shield Heavy < Armor Heavy + Logi Shield Commando< Armor Commando Shield tank< Armor tank. so you are implying that the only good shield based suit that is good is a scout? mind you my consensus was based upon regen and not tank ability nor damage profiles He is correct, mostly because scout base shield regen stats are insane (50 hp regen base and 3 sec depleted delay basically leaves you with 4 high slots for shield extenders on the caldari, and unlike the slower shield suits, it actually has enough speed to escape most enemies to give them time to regen)
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 703	Posted - 2015.05.13 05:12:00 - [15] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I made these two proto suits for comparison. Both are pure tanked, rather than dual tanked and are as similar as I could make them whilst being racially appropriate. Caldari assault Gallente assault The Caldari assault has 662 hp and regens shields in 11.8 seconds. The Gallente assault has 702 hp and regens armour in 17 seconds. So Gallente has better hp by 40, Caldari has better regen. Perhaps a better comparison of regen would be what happens if either suit takes 400 damage from full hp. The Caldari suit will regen fully in 9.7 seconds. The Gallente suit will regen it's armour in 6.9 seconds, but will not even start regenerating shields until after 10 seconds. It will take the suit 19.7 seconds to return to full hp. One final thing to consider is the armour regen on the Caldari suit. If the Cal assault loses half it's armour, it will take it over a minute to fully regen. So in conclusion, I really don't think there's much in it. Caldari also have the option to forgo damage and regen for max shields, Gallente have the option to forgo mobility and fit armour plates. Neither of these options are very good in my opinion, but there we are. I personally think that if shields should be buffed at all, the buff should go to energizers. Considering the fact that shield suits sacrifice hp for regen when compared to armour, and that they have to contend with a recharge delay, shield energizers could stand a buff. However, I really don't think that shields are nearly as underpowered as some people claim. Because you are considering things at the dropsuit level, which is a much more even playing field, especially comparing gallente assault vs. caldari assault. Lets consider some other stuff... Caldari vs. other suits: Minmatar, not going to give caldari time to regen ever, basically hard countering the supposed advantage of caldari, which is high regen speed, with high speed and comparable hp, the minmatar can apply unyielding pressure on the caldari which will shut down anyone trying to play a regen game. Amarr, scramblers will just whipe out a shield tnaked suit in t=0, its not even cool how good scramblers and assault scramblers are against shield suits. in addition a single kincat on an amarr will again give them pressure dominance against the caldari which once again removes their regen advantage. Against scouts: Scouts will, just like any other faster suit, be able to pressure away the cal's regen advantage, while due to the HP differential it will have a harder time doing this, it can also use ambush and stealth to initiate or escape situations to bend things heavily in its favor. Once again the Cal will not be able to escape or dictate the terms of engagement, which is vital to take advantage of the nature of its "superior" regen. Against ANYONE WITH A LOGI: Caldari now has zero advantage, regen advantage is completely overwhelmed by the rep tool which gives more reps per second than you can reasonably fit. Against ANYONE WITH REP NANOHIVES: Same as above, though the advantage is easier to remove via flux/marksmanship In skirmishing: Higher HP + leisure time to regen due to distance each person needs to travel makes skirmishing, long range play, actually favor the armor tanker, not the shield tanker, and this is where caldari are actually supposed to dominate, and once again the scrambler rifle spoils things as well, since it is deadly at almost any viable range for even the Breach Rail Rifle (which by the way is easily the worst rifle in the game right now) tl;dr: the overall high level picture for shield suits is pretty grim, they have ONE advantage, regen, that is easily countered by alot of different tactics, and a ton of disadvantages that make them (comparatively) easy pickings for someone who knows what they are doing. The only dedicated shield suit that is any good right now is the Caldari Scout, and even there Im not sure it can claim the crown as best in class since Gal Scout has a better dampening/speed situation.
JIMvc2 Consolidated Dust 1036	Posted - 2015.05.13 06:11:00 - [16] - Quote Instead of flux doing 100% to shields. It should do a %25 max to shields. The delay really needs to be looked at it. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! Die YOU SHADOW BEING IN THE DARK!!!
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 1218	Posted - 2015.05.13 10:44:00 - [17] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: balacs assult ck.o 3 complex shield extenders 2 complex shield rechargers 4 complex shield regulators core grenades ishy hives officer BP officer RR last I checked that's a good 750 shield with 85 shield hp regen a second with a .89 sec delay and a depleted delay of .91 come at my shields bro. hits you in head with charged scr shot sends you some tissues
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 157	Posted - 2015.05.13 20:52:00 - [18] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: I made these two proto suits for comparison. Both are pure tanked, rather than dual tanked and are as similar as I could make them whilst being racially appropriate. Caldari assault Gallente assault The Caldari assault has 662 hp and regens shields in 11.8 seconds. The Gallente assault has 702 hp and regens armour in 17 seconds. So Gallente has better hp by 40, Caldari has better regen. Perhaps a better comparison of regen would be what happens if either suit takes 400 damage from full hp. The Caldari suit will regen fully in 9.7 seconds. The Gallente suit will regen it's armour in 6.9 seconds, but will not even start regenerating shields until after 10 seconds. It will take the suit 19.7 seconds to return to full hp. One final thing to consider is the armour regen on the Caldari suit. If the Cal assault loses half it's armour, it will take it over a minute to fully regen. So in conclusion, I really don't think there's much in it. Caldari also have the option to forgo damage and regen for max shields, Gallente have the option to forgo mobility and fit armour plates. Neither of these options are very good in my opinion, but there we are. I personally think that if shields should be buffed at all, the buff should go to energizers. Considering the fact that shield suits sacrifice hp for regen when compared to armour, and that they have to contend with a recharge delay, shield energizers could stand a buff. However, I really don't think that shields are nearly as underpowered as some people claim. Because you are considering things at the dropsuit level, which is a much more even playing field, especially comparing gallente assault vs. caldari assault. Lets consider some other stuff... Caldari vs. other suits: Minmatar, not going to give caldari time to regen ever, basically hard countering the supposed advantage of caldari, which is high regen speed, with high speed and comparable hp, the minmatar can apply unyielding pressure on the caldari which will shut down anyone trying to play a regen game. Amarr, scramblers will just whipe out a shield tnaked suit in t=0, its not even cool how good scramblers and assault scramblers are against shield suits. in addition a single kincat on an amarr will again give them pressure dominance against the caldari which once again removes their regen advantage. Against scouts: Scouts will, just like any other faster suit, be able to pressure away the cal's regen advantage, while due to the HP differential it will have a harder time doing this, it can also use ambush and stealth to initiate or escape situations to bend things heavily in its favor. Once again the Cal will not be able to escape or dictate the terms of engagement, which is vital to take advantage of the nature of its "superior" regen. Against ANYONE WITH A LOGI: Caldari now has zero advantage, regen advantage is completely overwhelmed by the rep tool which gives more reps per second than you can reasonably fit. Against ANYONE WITH REP NANOHIVES: Same as above, though the advantage is easier to remove via flux/marksmanship In skirmishing: Higher HP + leisure time to regen due to distance each person needs to travel makes skirmishing, long range play, actually favor the armor tanker, not the shield tanker, and this is where caldari are actually supposed to dominate, and once again the scrambler rifle spoils things as well, since it is deadly at almost any viable range for even the Breach Rail Rifle (which by the way is easily the worst rifle in the game right now) tl;dr: the overall high level picture for shield suits is pretty grim, they have ONE advantage, regen, that is easily countered by alot of different tactics, and a ton of disadvantages that make them (comparatively) easy pickings for someone who knows what they are doing. The only dedicated shield suit that is any good right now is the Caldari Scout, and even there Im not sure it can claim the crown as best in class since Gal Scout has a better dampening/speed situation. my consensus was just about the same, although shields are not necessarily bad they just simply under perform in actual combat
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10123	Posted - 2015.05.13 21:05:00 - [19] - Quote I'll tell you what the dumbest feeling in the world is... Not having enough SP to fully spec into a Shield-suit (Caldari Assault) to test out just how bad it is and see if it's as bad as people make it out to be. Then, realizing that I still want to see for myself, I spend a bunch of Aurum on 'Neo' suits.... just to lose them to really stupid ways to die like a friendly LAV driver burying himself into a wall or something. Like, I -WANT- to sympathize with shield tankers, I really do, but damn it is hard to do when you haven't ran shields since closed beta. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 157	Posted - 2015.05.13 21:15:00 - [20] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'll tell you what the dumbest feeling in the world is... Not having enough SP to fully spec into a Shield-suit (Caldari Assault) to test out just how bad it is and see if it's as bad as people make it out to be. Then, realizing that I still want to see for myself, I spend a bunch of Aurum on 'Neo' suits.... just to lose them to really stupid ways to die like a friendly LAV driver burying himself into a wall or something. Like, I -WANT- to sympathize with shield tankers, I really do, but damn it is hard to do when you haven't ran shields since closed beta. its fairly easy to test out shields on armor suits the delay isnt much of a difference and you can even get lower delay rates on armor fittings with complex regs using the right suits testing on min suits is probably the most viable seeing as to how many people use it you can do it on gal and amarr but the main thing is just seeing that shields on other suits suck just as bad as they do on cal the thing about shields is not really the hp, its the fact that armor users have too many advantages and ways to counter shields

Oswald Rehnquist 1529	Posted - 2015.05.13 21:48:00 - [21] - Quote I would also like to point out the big discrepancy with having shields being your first line of defense. If an armor suit gets a surprise hit with an anti armor weapon, the shot has to go through its shields before hand, so the shock isn't so great. Shield suits on the other hand, when they get surprised with a anti shield weapon, get the full damage applied to their main defense. This also plays out with vehicles. Armor hardeners can activate after they get hit, so they have to make no reads or predictions, but shield hardeners have to activate beforehand when the player expects to be in danger. Automatically shield users have to analyze their surroundings more so than armor users. This is why scouts have more parity between shields and armor because they have a few tools to help with surrounding intel. To fix this problem, it might not be to radical to suggest that in lieu of a shield repper a logi that can provide a AoE shield hardener for like a few seconds, would still follow the "moments of opportunity" doctrine for shield users. This would translate to shield users having a stronger advantage state than armor users but armor users have a better disadvantage state than shield users. Below 28 dB
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. RUST415 3782	Posted - 2015.05.13 22:09:00 - [22] - Quote For a new player, I think you have a firm grasp on the armor/shield meta. FWIW, I find myself agreeing with virtually everything you said.
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 706	Posted - 2015.05.14 07:34:00 - [23] - Quote Its also very much worth noting that the native armor regen on a shield based drop suit is not anywhere near what the native shield regen is on an armor based dropsuit, so when we are talking about pure tanking for one or the other, the shield portion of an armor based dropsuit is much more functional and valuable than the armor portion of a shield based suit, simply because of a massive difference in repair rate between the two. If a gallente or amarr suit loses their shields its no big deal, and within 15 seconds or so it will all be back. If a caldari suit loses their armor, its a massive deal and basically sets you back up to 200 hp for ~1-2 minutes or more. This leaves the shield based suit having to fit reppers, triage hives, or go find a logi, and it leaves the armor drop absolutely the same place it was before because they dont have to worry about a damn thing.


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"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.