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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
10412
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Posted - 2015.04.27 15:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'd like to ask about some numbers for vehicle resistant modules but first I'd like to set the scene for this possible environment.
Lets say several months in the future we happen to have different AV weapons in regards to profile and they actually be efficient in their own way (At least one heavy and light AV option for each profile).
We also have Amarr and Minmatar vehicles and turrets to add into diversity.
With that being said what if our multi-purpose hardeners of 40% were moved to specific profiles resistance i.e. Plasma Hardener, Rail Hardener, Laser Hardener and Explosive Hardeners?
At the same time Generic Hardeners would be moved to 23% or around that ballpark.
Generic Passive Hardeners that we used to have could be 5% - 10% - 15%
While profile specific passive hardeners could be 10% - 15% - 20% (maybe something better than that.)
What would you guys think of that? I believe that the strong hardeners that makes something damn near invulnerable should be in the game, just not in the form of an omni module.
Thoughts? Concerns?
As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1503
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Posted - 2015.04.27 15:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yes. This would help a lot; tech to resist Swarms? Well, those Rails will hurt you.
I'd like to see DSs and LAVs getting slots akin to HAVs, however, so that they can actually make half decent fits to survive, but profile specific resistance modules should most definitely become a thing.
Also, dropsuits should get resistance modules too, in the same vein.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Harpyja
2388
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Posted - 2015.04.27 15:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
I feel like good numbers to start with would be 50% for specific active resists and 30% for omni active resists (going off of EVE).
Though one big concern I have with this idea is that we only have a limited number of module slots whereas in EVE ships can get up to eight modules on a rack. Having a smaller number of module slots necessitates the use of more powerful individual modules whereas having more module slots allows for more flexibility between more specific modules (you don't give up as much fitting space per module).
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
10414
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Posted - 2015.04.27 15:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:I feel like good numbers to start with would be 50% for specific active resists and 30% for omni active resists (going off of EVE).
Though one big concern I have with this idea is that we only have a limited number of module slots whereas in EVE ships can get up to eight modules on a rack. Having a smaller number of module slots necessitates the use of more powerful individual modules whereas having more module slots allows for more flexibility between more specific modules (you don't give up as much fitting space per module).
yeah.....
Hmm. That is a doozy to work around.
how many slots are the Amarr and Minmatar HAV supposed to have?
As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
1120
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Posted - 2015.04.27 15:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:What would you guys think of that? I believe that the strong hardeners that makes something damn near invulnerable should be in the game, just not in the form of an omni module. I fully agree with this assessment. Many conclusions can be drawn from this, but it's perfectly clear that armor hardeners were overbuffed (my conclusion).
I'm not sure whether damage type resistance modules would work very well - in our typical battles all available damage types are being thrown around at the same time, so these modules are unlikely to be used for general purpose. You may get into a situation where you're casually rolling a HAV with a certain turret until someone drops a MLT HAV that's dual hardened against your specific turret and kills you easily before immediately recalling the vehicle. There really is no counter to that.
Do you see a solution to that problem?
By the way, I like how you suggested 23% resistance for 'omni' hardeners - which is almost exactly what we had before the armor hardener buff. I'm going to continue to beat that dead horse for a while. Don't mind me.
I'd like to add that Dust side we can always tweak activation and cooldown times. I can live with strong modules that have a short active duration but a long cooldown. |
MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2825
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Posted - 2015.04.27 15:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
I dislike the idea of specific resists. I don't mind low value Omni resists though.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
10415
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Posted - 2015.04.27 15:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:What would you guys think of that? I believe that the strong hardeners that makes something damn near invulnerable should be in the game, just not in the form of an omni module. I fully agree with this assessment. Many conclusions can be drawn from this, but it's perfectly clear that armor hardeners were overbuffed (my conclusion). I'm not sure whether damage type resistance modules would work very well - in our typical battles all available damage types are being thrown around at the same time, so these modules are unlikely to be used for general purpose. You may get into a situation where you're casually rolling a HAV with a certain turret until someone drops a MLT HAV that's dual hardened against your specific turret and kills you easily before immediately recalling the vehicle. There really is no counter to that. Do you see a solution to that problem? By the way, I like how you suggested 23% resistance for 'omni' hardeners - which is almost exactly what we had before the armor hardener buff. I'm going to continue to beat that dead horse for a while. Don't mind me. I'd like to add that Dust side we can always tweak activation and cooldown times. I can live with strong modules that have a short active duration but a long cooldown. In the end all I really want is Hardeners not to be so battle decisive as they are now and for Armor Repairs to be active again.
Also in general an HP buff for both HAVs if Resist modules get toned down.
As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
10415
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Posted - 2015.04.27 15:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:I dislike the idea of specific resists. I don't mind low value Omni resists though. You have to deal with that in EVE but at the same time EVE pilots don't get the luxury of coming in the battle again within seconds after they get killed. Alright, scratch that off then.
Omi Passives are still something I feel we really need. Especially with things Like LAVs.
Were you here back when we had damage control units?
In addition to Passive Omni- Hardeners (Energized plating and Shield Amplifiers) we also had those which gave a slight passive resist to shields and a decent resist stat for armor. The Damage control unit also, or wasn't supposed to, get a stacking penalty compared to the other resist module. Making it a pretty powerful thing.
As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
2828
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Posted - 2015.04.27 16:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:I dislike the idea of specific resists. I don't mind low value Omni resists though. You have to deal with that in EVE but at the same time EVE pilots don't get the luxury of coming in the battle again within seconds after they get killed. Alright, scratch that off then. Omi Passives are still something I feel we really need. Especially with things Like LAVs. Were you here back when we had damage control units? In addition to Passive Omni- Hardeners (Energized plating and Shield Amplifiers) we also had those which gave a slight passive resist to shields and a decent resist stat for armor. The Damage control unit also, or wasn't supposed to, get a stacking penalty compared to the other resist module. Making it a pretty powerful thing.
My response is going to be pretty 'stream of conciousness' so it might not be entirely coherent and I'm likely to jump from point to point.
I started in around 1.3 or 1.4, I was here for Omni passives, I made the mistake of skilling into shield tanks though (and they were terrible) while 1.7 brought some good to the table I've really grown to resent the removed assets and horrible imbalance it's brought. Pre 1.7 vehicles weren't perfect and I'll certainly acknowledge that I've got some rose tinted glasses on but a lot of things that have come since have just been pretty terrible.
On point I don't inherently mind passive reps, so long as they're tolerably low but not too low ie old shield tanks that took 5 minutes to recover. The new 'delay' / 'depleted delay' on vehicles shield systems is honestly pretty dumb and seemingly exists to justify absurd rep rates but only if you can 'find cover / avoid fire' which basically boils down to you're either dead in a straight fight with something or you get to cover and are fine 10-15 seconds later which is a huge problem for shield tanks in the former and the latter is an issue present on both varieties. I believe a high raw hp / low rep model presents a system that while a tank might be durable when it needs to be, when eventually forced off they are likely to be forced off for a semi-reasonable duration, though there might be situations where infantry or vehicle remote reps (god I hope those come back) can make for powerful 'beachheads' they're not unmanageable if you properly target the support.
I should specify, I don't think that the Omni-hardening provided by current hardeners is bad, I just think practically all of the numbers involved with vehicles are wrong.
I miss a lot of the old mods that existed from the passive damage modules aka the thing that on paper made shield tanks actually somewhat desireable - much like how dropsuit damage mods are supposed to be low slot modules (that's another argument entirely) - to the mobility mods.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
3142
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Posted - 2015.04.27 20:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Seeing as switching damage types for AV can be done on the fly, very quickly, I'd rather not.
Top lel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
10433
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Posted - 2015.04.27 21:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Seeing as switching damage types for AV can be done on the fly, very quickly, I'd rather not. Yeah we've hit that point. Things pretty much digressed to passive resistance modules
As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Melchiah ARANeAE
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
583
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Posted - 2015.04.27 23:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
I think this is a good idea. They have their strengths and weaknesses.
The specific resist will work really well for FW (or any other missions they might implement where you're up against a specific faction) or if you plan on taking down a particular tank. Whereas the omni's would still give you reasonable resists for general tanking.
We want cake and tea.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
18532
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Posted - 2015.04.27 23:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Weird how people forget this has been suggested before........
"MIN MAXING! MIN MAXING! I'M BETTER AT IT THAN YOU!"
- Mobius Wyvern
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1504
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Posted - 2015.04.28 00:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Weird how people forget this has been suggested before........ Not forgotten, just supporting the renewal of the suggestion.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
10445
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Posted - 2015.04.28 00:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:True Adamance wrote:Weird how people forget this has been suggested before........ Not forgotten, just supporting the renewal of the suggestion. Yeah True.
We all know the idea is old.
Most of my post is literally saying the same thing over and over again.
You know how many times I complained about giving Myos Juno height?
The devs and community at the time laughed at me BUT WHOS LAUGHING NOW!?
As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
3142
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Posted - 2015.04.28 03:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Melchiah ARANeAE wrote:I think this is a good idea. They have their strengths and weaknesses.
The specific resist will work really well for FW (or any other missions they might implement where you're up against a specific faction) or if you plan on taking down a particular tank. Whereas the omni's would still give you reasonable resists for general tanking.
Thing is this doesn't happen. Hell, this doesn't even happen in EVE. It's pretty difficult to predict what kind of damage someone is going to attack yo with, which is why most of the time people don't even bother with hardeners outside of PVE. The same thing applies to Dust, more so because fit swapping is MUCH faster.
Which is why, as I said, I'd rather not.
Top lel
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