Oswald Rehnquist
1507
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Posted - 2015.04.27 05:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm not sure if the thread is still a debating / conversing thread or not, this isn't to attack anyone, just trying to explain something. Also this isn't a critique against CCP, they have done an amazing job with such a complex game. Truly its mind blowing.
The point of cloaks is to be useful, currently cloaks are not, or the gains are not worth the the time/space to field them.
That being said, cloaks don't have to be useful or even in the game. Arguable the most enjoyable scout times were when we lacked a cloak. The problem is with scouts being tied to something that isn't useful which is then used to justify subpar stats/mechanics.
Between early beta's open field neo dodging scouts (that had a short lifespan) and uprising 1.8, people had zero problem with scouts and laughed at the suit for the most part. Yet during this period their stealth abilities were a lot stronger than they are now. In fact scout stealthiness was highest right when they removed auto detection perfect precision from points of interest. Scouts could effectively stay electronically invisible pre cloaks. Obviously this was not overpowered, no one flocked to scouts but they had the freedom to do what they needed with their fittings while having a niche power.
Cloaks were implemented in 1.8, and boy not since the logisaults did we see so much domination, but this time from a non medium frame. Since then, scouts have been severely nerfed to justify the existence of the cloak. Core mechanics were changed to nerf scouts, and scouts are now chained to the cloak limiting imaginative builds.
The cloaks does not project you with open terrain movement, the cloak does a poor job of protecting you if you are standing still in normally unsafe areas (at least against good players). So scouts need to go back to pre cloak habits as the cloak doesn't really expand any opportunities. I'm cool with that, not needing to depend on expensive equipment is nice, I honestly did prefer pre 1.8 scouts, and it was the opness of 1.8 that made me leave dust for a bit as traditional stalking is much more intense.
The obvious answer now is to simply not run cloaks. The thing is that those old opportunities are also limited due to all the other changes that they have been implemented to balance around cloaks. The suit role is directly tied to it, its like running a sentinel without ehp buffers, and new scanning system makes old method of pre cloak stalking obsolete. So what we are left with is a suit without a niche with subpar stats.
Essentially, scouts are in a werid position now than ever only because the scout debate has been "settled", which is a lot worse than the initial excitement pre 1.8 that an actual niche would have been given to us.
These are early uprising clips, so what makes them so special especially when we consider that this time we still had auto detect installations and no cloaks?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hYp9WYkmhg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8X7qUXaqS8#t=4m09s
They are special because none of this isn't really feasible under the current mechanics (as it pertains to the new scan system), and this is probably the "most scoutly" image one can conjure up when thinking about general scout gameplay in fps games. This is a 11k fitting, if that matters at all, its just for kicks and giggles but the point still stands.
As a result, I use ScR/BP combo to accommodate the new middle range which scouts have been delineated to, but the concept of the cloak really isn't useful at this distance, in fact more often than not gives you away, its best to use basic cover than a cloak with this spacing as well. The scanning stats not exactly in favor with scouts which more or less makes it a big deal to ditch the cloak considering how much has been sacrificed for its existence.
This will probably PO many scouts off, I'm stating it because I'm selfish/dumb/evil/ignorant/etc, but if it fixes the role bleed, I personally wouldn't mind a more utility based passive aggressive role such as debuffing, kind of like an anti logi (drains ammo, reveals position, slows movement, cancels healing, etc). Though since this is more of a pipe dream, then that means with the exception for pilots and logis who can earn WPs without traditional rifle front line combat. Scouts are also rifle slayers until given tools to function as something else.
Assault stats get really close to the scouts traditional niche stats while fielding better ones themselves (this was reversed in 1.8, where people were wondering why they should even field assaults), their roles and functioning too similar to where one will clearly absorb the others role. Scouts were initially nerfed into oblivion due to offending assault suits and left untouched for a long time, they got touched in 1.8, offending assaults and got the relative nerf bat again (scouts aren't existing in oblivion now though). I'm of the opinion that they cannot be balanced, hence I think the aggressive speedster role should be absorbed by the assault permanently creating a light vs heavy assault sub class while providing something unique for the scout (currently, its the cloak, which has been made easier to be field by other suits).
My suggestion here should rightfully offend every slayer scout here because its directly threatening their role, and any criticism against me based on this suggestion is entirely justified, but the interesting part is more of them are now fielding non scouts to accommodate the current situation.
Didn't cost me much so there is my $.02 at any rate. I'm completely willing to be informed/corrected of my ignorance as I'm not immune to being off base. Theorycrafting is fun for me, so I'm all ears to better thoughts and opinions. Mine are simply influenced based on my observations on Dust's buffing and nerfing history of the scout.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1512
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Posted - 2015.04.28 04:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:To Oswald:
So are you saying the cloak should be buffed? I think that's what you are saying.
Cloaks aren't useful for the CQC sneaky stuff shown in those videos, but they are useful for battlefield mobility, non-combat activities and getting yourself into position to do the sneaky CQC stuff. Just not currently good enough at it (IMO).
The main reasons the gameplay in your videos is not really viable now, are the inner scan ring and loss of passive scan direction arrows.
It is possible to dampen below inner scans in some situations, so there is that. Mostly you need a proto suit though.
Removal of passive scan direction arrows was a shame, but I guess there were good reasons for it. In a way it adds a bit of skill guessing people orientation based on watching their movement, along with general awareness.
I actually didn't make any suggestions for the cloak, the inner ring is my biggest complaint. The cloak isn't good for on the move either as you light up like a Christmas tree, otherwise I would love the cloak if it was actually useful for non combat activities.
My main specialization is hacking / killing high profile targets / support / killing base defense, I try to avoid combat and killing when necessary, so a non combat cloak would be awesome, I frequently advocate beta scout activities. Though with the recent changes, negates this role of piercing base defense.
If my position is always compromised when trying to infiltrate or defend a base in a hidden spot, half the job as a hacker/support scout is compromised. Truly, all the cloak + scan changes did was force scouts into a strictly medium combat role, which then scout utility is now strictly based on how well it can kill in basic trench warefare, which then puts scouts in direct competition with assaults. And this means somebody is going to lose out.
I actually don't really advocate any cloak changes as of now because the niche of the scout and assault have been placed way to close together to actually theorycraft a balanced cloak.
I personally think more radical thinking is needed to create differentiation as I would not mind testing out radical propositions and see how they work out.
Like, could CCP create anti logis? Back when we were talking caldari scout bonuses CCP was considering making caldari scouts emit a debuff aura to precision. Essentially you became blind when a caldari scout was nearby, so could CCP go further in this direction with aura debuffs? Could CCP create more equipment for scouts? Perhaps the Amarr Scout's equipment could drain ammo from enemies? Could CCP buff cloaks if they made scouts sidearm only? Could scouts also have duel light weapons while getting nerfed in other areas making them light commandos as assaults are like light light sentinels?
I mean there are a lot of things that are theoretically possible which can give some breathing room between scouts and assaults. I'm more of an advocate of the "lets just try it out" mentality that was more common in early beta where more radical ideas were tested.
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