DUST Search - 'Tankacide' for Dropsuits

ZDub 303 wrote:

I remember suggesting this about 12-18 months ago. Many many people have pushed for a pseudo tiercide of dropsuits at one point or another.

I actually got a direct response from Rattati about it once. He said something along the lines of "Its not a bad idea, but I won't do it. Dust is tiered dropsuits and its staying that way". Curious if his stance has changed on this topic since.

A huge problem in Dust is that customization is such a key factor, and building dropsuits is a truly core mechanic to the experience. Yet unless you are quite rich and can run proto suits often you are stuck running suits with almost no modules. I tried to convey that point, saying if you limit CPU/PG on these suits then you really don't get much bang for your buck on standard suits anyways, but having 5-6 slots to play with even at standard level is so much more engaging than the pitiful 2-3 that you currently get, even less for non-med suits.

Additionally, it would help lower the percieved power gap between vets and new players. If a new player sees a proto suit and is like, "I can't ever compete, he has twice the slots than I do and all these passives... F' it I give up /ragequit", I really think many of those types of players in a pseudo-tiercide system would be like, "Well I don't have the same CPU/PG than that proto suit but I can build the same suit and get pretty close! Man I want that proto suit". Its not really about how large the power gap actually is, its just about how players perceive that gap to be that matters in terms of retention.

"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"


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Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3782	Posted - 2015.04.15 10:30:00 - [1] - Quote So Tanks recently got a change so that the difference between a Standard, Advanced, and Prototype Tank was the amount of CPU/PG between the three and that's it. This means that you can fit a Standard Tank the same way you can fit a Prototype tank, just that you will have to use weaker modules (you have 5 lows regardless of Madrugar, so maybe you have basic instead of advanced modules but you still have the same fit). This seems like a good idea for dropsuits. Reason #1: Certain dropsuits have terrible, terrible scaling. Let's take a look at the Logistics suits: - Basic: Amarr: 2H 2L 2 E, Sidearm Caldari: 2H 1L 2E Gallente: 1H 2L 3E Minmatar: 2H 2L 3E - Advanced: Amarr: 3H 3L 3 E, Sidearm Caldari: 3H 2L 3E Gallente: 2H 3L 3E Minmatar: 3H 3L 3E - Prototype: Amarr: 3H 4L 3 E, Sidearm Caldari: 5H 4L 3E Gallente: 3H 5L 4E Minmatar: 4H 4L 4E Looking at Prototype, it seems balanced. Minmatar have a 4/4 set up, owing to their dual tank nature, and 4 Equipment (12 total). Gallente have a 3/5 set up, supporting their Armor focus, and 4 Equipment (12 total). Caldari have a 5/4 set up, supporting their Shield set up, and 3 Equipment (12 total). Amarr have a 3/4 set up with only 3 Equipment but have a Sidearm (11 total). It looks fairly fair. Caldari have the highest defensive slots but with only 3 Equipment. Amarr give up one defensive slot and one equipment to get a Sidearm (in truth, they should probably be 3/5 as well). But look at it from the basic level. Basic: Minmatar has 2/2/3, which is great. Amarr has 2/2/2 but has a sidearm, equaling the Minmatar. Gallente has 1/2/3, which means less slots than the Minmatar. Caldari take up the rear massively with 1/2/2. Caldari simply lost out. Advanced: Amarr is the clear standout at 3/3/3 and a sidearm. Next we have Minmatar with 3/3/3. Gallente and Caldari are equal with 2/3 and 3/2 layouts. Prototype: This is probably where it was meant to be balanced. The idea of "Caldari will have more slots than anyone else" doesn't even happen until Prototype level, which is 2 million SP deep and using the most expensive suits in the game. The lower level balances are out of synch. If the layouts of the Standard, Advanced, and Prototype suits were the same the trading done would 'work' at each level. Reason #2: It gives a lot of power to the Basic and Advanced suits. 'Protostomping' has been an issue in the community for at least 18 months. A Prototype suit will have at least twice the HP of a basic suit and will do far, far more damage. If the Basic suits received the same lay out as the Prototype suits and potentially even an increase in CPU/PG, the power gap between the suits would fall. Prototype would still be better given that they could fit all those modules to be Advanced and Prototype but it wouldn't be as much of a chasm as it is now. If the basic Caldari Logistics could use all those slots for basic modules, they could gain 100 shields, 71 Armor using Ferroscale, and 5.1 Armor repair using 2 Repairers. This does nothing to hurt the Prototype user; they will still have superior equipment and superior HP but only 50-100% more rather than 200% more. Reason #3: It makes it easier to transition from Basic to Advanced to Prototype. Rather than having to figure out what to do with your extra 2 slots and CPU/PG, every level would only give additional CPU/PG. This means that the hypothetical new player could figure out a fit that they like at the basic level and that suit will still work at the Advanced level, only with better modules. Reason #4: It opens up more options. The notion behind the Scanning changes was that there would be a reason to use Profile Dampeners even if you weren't a Scout. Paraphrasing Rattati: "An Amarr Assault could make it so they would only be seen within the medium range rather than the long range with Dampeners and the same Assault would be able to pick up non-Dampened Scouts in the close range with a Precision Enhancer." This has potential to create a metagame; there are a lot of Scouts so I need this. The problem, however, is that there is no way in hell a basic Amarr Assault is going to use all of their High Slots for a Precision Enhancer or a third of their Low Slots for a Profile Dampener. This ebb and flow, counter-play is simply not going to happen at the basic suit level because the rewards are not high enough. "This make it less worthwhile to go Prototype." Take a look at the games where you see Tanks. Are they all Basic? I see quite a few Basic, Advanced, and Prototype Tanks out there. It seems like those players still see a use for going above Basic to fit superior modules. I don't see why a Dropsuit that is 1/15th the base cost of a tank would be any different. "This makes the APEX suits nearly worthless." This... is absolutely true. APEX suits were meant to be the "Prototype suit with basic modules" that I am proposing be made now. There are a few ways to go about rectifying this. 1. Make the APEX suits adjustable. Give them the proper CPU/PG of a Basic Suit but the blueprints cost zero CPU/PG. They still work for free suits and still work as a newbie aid. 2. Reduce the price of the APEX suits bought via Aurum. "They are less important so we are reducing the price." Give a partial refund, perhaps? 3. Increase the power of the APEX modules. APEX suits are already miles ahead of Basic suits so buffing them in response to the increase of power to the Basic suits doesn't change anything. The APEX thing is entirely a valid point. However, you don't choose to keep something broken because the fix results in a different, less sticky problem. Thoughts, opinions, suggestions? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3782	Posted - 2015.04.15 10:32:00 - [2] - Quote Sorry for the wall. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3788	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:01:00 - [3] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: The Logi suits are all well known to be the best example of bad scaling, as well as not having anything other than a random slot layout progression. What are you asking for, fixing slot layouts? What I am asking for is Dropsuits to be treated the same way tanks are; the only difference between Basic, Advanced, and Prototype is CPU/PG. It is tieracide, essentially. I just used Logistics as a way to show that bad scaling can be fixed by just giving all suits of the same type the same slot layout regardless of quality. To avoid ambiguity: I mean for all suits to have the same slot layout as their Prototype versions and merely only have differing CPU/PG at each level. That is, the Amarr* Assault** have the same layout at Basic and Advanced as it does at Prototype. : Exchange Amarr for Caldari, Gallente, or Minmatar as needed. : Exchange Assault for Commando, Logistics, Scout, or Sentinel as needed Georgia Xavier wrote:* At pro, the amarr sacrifices a module slot,an equipment slot and has below average cpu and pg. This seems like a bit much loss compared to a single gain (sidearm). Also the cal logistics at pro has 9 total slots but can't utilise all of them properly if carrying pro equipment and pro weapons. Gallente and min logistics are fine. What I can't understand though is that logi are one of the slowest suits in the game. They are supposed to be fast for quick support. They need to be be to dive into battle and support allies under fire then escape with little time That is a different issue than what I intended to address in this post. The balance between the different race's suits is certainly something to look into but it is generally best to keep to a single Feature/Idea per thread to keep it easier to track and follow. Megaman Trigger wrote: Would this be rolled out to all Drop Suits or just the Logi suits? Either way, I support it. All dropsuits. Thanks for the posts everyone. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3789	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:23:00 - [4] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: My bad for diverting the topic. Anyways what you meant was keeping the same slot layout through the suit progression right? Difference is the cpu and pg increases Eg: amarr assault Std: 3H/5L Adv: 3H/5L Pro: 3H/5L Or am I wrong? Correct. Obviously applied to every suit. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3789	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:31:00 - [5] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: -1. I would love to know what concerns you have. Perhaps you see some flaw that I have missed? Thanks. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3809	Posted - 2015.04.18 12:29:00 - [6] - Quote Thanks for the post. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3812	Posted - 2015.04.18 16:17:00 - [7] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? "Like, why would you know? I know you are CPM but Rattati is always going on and on and on about how 'Cross is such a weenie and a loser and smells bad.' Yeah, he mentioned it at last night's poker game. Oh, you don't know about the poker games? Dennie offered to give you a call but Rattati gave him a glare that made him sit back down." (The above is meant to be a playful joke at the idea that a CPM wouldn't know about a certain proposal and is in no way meant to be an attack on anyone mentioned or not mentioned. Whether or not Rattati has a secret poker game, I certainly would not be invited given my neckbeardness and tendency to belch.) A quick digression: I don't think the APEX thing would work. Giving them exact CPU/PG to use the modules with zero skills would mean that people could take out inefficient modules to get a flat out better BPO suit than Quafe, Raven, Sever, or Valor with Core Skills maxed. Back on topic: What do you think of the tieracide/'tankacide' idea Cross? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3852	Posted - 2015.04.20 17:05:00 - [8] - Quote Thanks for the posts everyone. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3855	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:55:00 - [9] - Quote dzizur wrote: kinde of nice ideas and read till I read this sentence "The problem, however, is that there is no way in hell a basic Amarr Assault is going to use all of their High Slots for a Precision Enhancer or a third of their Low Slots for a Profile Dampener. This ebb and flow, counter-play is simply not going to happen at the basic suit level because the rewards are not high enough." If ANY suit is not going to "use all high slots or 1/3 of low slots for profile dampener" then that suit (and the player in this suit) can go flux themselves. So all high and all lows tank is cool and all lows and high with EWAR (as if a pointer on a map was worthy of that name...) is bad? What kind of twisted logic is that? Not at all. I didn't mean it like that at all. In fact, if you quote the next part, it becomes more clear. "This has potential to create a metagame; there are a lot of Scouts so I need this. The problem, however, is that there is no way in hell a basic Amarr Assault is going to use all of their High Slots for a Precision Enhancer or a third of their Low Slots for a Profile Dampener. This ebb and flow, counter-play is simply not going to happen at the basic suit level because the rewards are not high enough." The bolded sentence is the part that was left out. I was not saying "All E-War is bad", I was saying "A basic suit would not use a Profile Dampener or a Precision Enhancer because the rewards are not high enough to go away with most of their slots. A Prototype Suit, that has far more slots, would be more willing to engage in this metagame. If all dropsuits had the same slot layout as they would have at Prototype, could also participate in this metagame." If you want to look at it a different way, without any ambiguity of "ohh, you just want full tank!", look at it like this: "I am a Scout. I use Profile Dampeners. However, I cannot actually get to the place where I am able to be a 'real' Scout because I don't use Prototype suits. Basic and Advanced suits don't have the slot layout to be 'real' Scouts. I cannot be that Stealthy, Fast, really easy to kill guy because my suits don't let me to." With the change, everyone at any level could participate in the game they wanted to play. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3855	Posted - 2015.04.21 21:50:00 - [10] - Quote Username Alpha wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: We have to make sure we adjust CPU/PG to accommodate the new slots. If new players have to leave module slots empty because they don't have the CPU/PG to fill them then we are right back where we are now. Not at all! Currently, the only practical difference between Militia and Basic (excluding weapons) is usually the skill requirement. But if a basic suit had as many slots as a pro suit, you'd actually have a reason to use basic stuff over militia stuff. I also think that increasing the CPU/PG of basic suits would go against the spirit of the proposal. I would actually be in favor of looking into the CPU/PG of the Basic and possibly even Advanced suits. I am not saying it would be mandatory but it should be looked into to see if there are any major cracks. IE, the Caldari Logistics has all those slots but cannot actually fill the things because they have massive CPU problems. Slightly off topic though. I think you should at least be able to throw in all Standard slots in a Standard suit. With higher skills, you can potentially work out to have certain modules be Advanced or higher and even at the cost of others. Highs: 3 Shield Extenders 1 Energizer 1 Recharger Lows: 1 Reactive Plate 2 Regulators Assault Rail Rifle Magsec SMG Locus Grenade Compact Nanohive This is what the hypothetical new players would do with a Basic Caldari Assault suit with zero skills other than requirements. That is a total of 198 CPU / 25 PG. The current basic Caldari Assault has 178 CPU / 27 PG. So it isn't out of the question that Basic level be increased. However, not doing it isn't that bad for a few reasons: 1. It showcases how important the Passive Skills are. In fact, this change would those skills even more awesome. Just getting Electronics to 2 and Caldari Basic Assault to level 1 causes the above fitting to work. 2. It creates different builds depending on skills. Maybe the new player throws in a militia CPU to make up the difference or decides to not use a Grenade/Sidearm. 3. It differentiates power to a degree. "My Prototype suit is just a Basic! What is the point?!" Well, that basic suit still only has at max 233.625 CPU. The hypothetical new person could ask "What is the point of adding in Passive Skills? I don't see it mattering!" The reply is simple: "With an extra 55 CPU, you can up those Basic Extenders to Advanced Extenders netting you an extra 51 HP." It might be necessary to look into the suit's PG/CPU but it isn't absolutely necessary from my quick eye-ball of a single suit. Regardless, I still feel the change would give a much needed boost to poorer and newer players without actually removing power from those that can run Prototype. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3866	Posted - 2015.04.23 02:16:00 - [11] - Quote For me, I would have the Starter fits still be what they are now. It could be a good tool for the hypothetical new players (HNP). "Cool, I have these suits! I can kill people." "Wait, why does this suit have so many more slots? Alright, I guess I will build this suit just like that one." For Militia suits, I am little torn. On one hand, it sucks for the HNP to have the ONLY suit they can use being so so much weaker than even the Basic Suit. A Militia Medium Caldari Frame would have 2/1/1 while a Basic Medium Caldari Frame would have 4/3/1. That doesn't amount to too much extra HP, like 100 with Basic modules, but it is still a concern. The concern is that the new players is making a choice in race before knowing what the hell each race does, but that is of course off topic. I would suggest that Basic and Advanced suits get what is underlined in the proposal while Militia and Starter suits do not. It provides a LOT of power very early. For less than 60k SP, they can get a suit that is far more threatening than what is currently possible. It gives them a big juicy carrot to make themselves a superior suit. Frames would probably need a nerf in the CPU/PG department, believe it or not. The Basic Medium Frame is 195/37 while the Basic Caldari Assault has 178/27. Either the Frame needs a reduction or the Basic Assaults need a buff. Keep the discussion going and, please, keep it in lines with the original topic. Thanks everyone! "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3869	Posted - 2015.04.23 16:33:00 - [12] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I remember suggesting this about 12-18 months ago. Many many people have pushed for a pseudo tiercide of dropsuits at one point or another. I actually got a direct response from Rattati about it once. He said something along the lines of "Its not a bad idea, but I won't do it. Dust is tiered dropsuits and its staying that way". Curious if his stance has changed on this topic since. A huge problem in Dust is that customization is such a key factor, and building dropsuits is a truly core mechanic to the experience. Yet unless you are quite rich and can run proto suits often you are stuck running suits with almost no modules. I tried to convey that point, saying if you limit CPU/PG on these suits then you really don't get much bang for your buck on standard suits anyways, but having 5-6 slots to play with even at standard level is so much more engaging than the pitiful 2-3 that you currently get, even less for non-med suits. Additionally, it would help lower the percieved power gap between vets and new players. If a new player sees a proto suit and is like, "I can't ever compete, he has twice the slots than I do and all these passives... F' it I give up /ragequit", I really think many of those types of players in a pseudo-tiercide system would be like, "Well I don't have the same CPU/PG than that proto suit but I can build the same suit and get pretty close! Man I want that proto suit". Its not really about how large the power gap actually is, its just about how players perceive that gap to be that matters in terms of retention. Aye, you hit all the points I wanted to make though without my uncontrollable verbosity. "More slots yields choices and not just power." So you can have the Basic Suit with 2 E-War modules because it isn't 100% of their slots being used. "Perceived power difference." I am not so sure if it will be more of a perceived difference or actually being a difference. Either way, that is a win in my book. But it is important for players to have at least a chance at the top players stuff. Weird analogy but Hearthstone has 3 different cards. One is a 2/2 with Spell Power, one is a 2/1 that when it dies it draws a card, and one is a 1/1 Spell Power and draws a card when it dies. Now the first card is automatically available, the second is very, very easy to get, and the third is quite difficult/rare to get. The 1/1 is naturally a better card because it has both features of the others. However, it can be substituted for either the 2/2 if you need Spell Power or the 2/1 if you want a card draw. "What the hell are you talking about?" Just like ZDub mentioned; you have to give the new guy a chance to at least substitute or at least the thought process of "okay, I don't have everything but hey, my 2/2 is better than his 2/1!" I too wonder if Rattati's thoughts on the matters have changed. Tanks were tiered until they weren't. It is probably also going to happen to Dropships and LAV's. I don't see why it cannot also happen to Dropsuits; 'everything' stays the way it is until it changes. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3898	Posted - 2015.04.26 01:43:00 - [13] - Quote Rattati? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3974	Posted - 2015.05.02 00:56:00 - [14] - Quote Trying not to overdue it, respectful bump. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3976	Posted - 2015.05.02 08:50:00 - [15] - Quote That is a really limited scope Kal. First, HTFU started as "if you want to be as good as us, HTFU." It should not, cannot, be used as a pointless excuse to keep things obtuse. Thankfully, CCP does not fall into this trap often. They completely revamped the starting missions in EVE to make it more new player friendly. Based on the other tieracides they have done (kestrals not simply being "better" than Merlins) and for what has happened with tanks, this proposal only seems to make sense to me. thanks for the post! "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3989	Posted - 2015.05.08 01:11:00 - [16] - Quote So Apex suits can be adjusted now. So, how about it CCP? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"