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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
287
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Posted - 2015.04.09 02:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
JUPA SACH wrote:Are you aware that all you do is complain about everything?
It may be a complaint but... Armor hardeners need a chill pill...
Whenever i engage a tank (ADS) i go for the gunny first because I know no matter how hard it can get, as long as I keep breaking recharge, i have a chance.
But maddies? They just "OH! DAMAGE? *HARDEN* HA HA HA. " and know I'm waiting 30-45 seconds until i can engage. That and twin hardeners at max up/down time is near perma harden...
It's simply too effective... It's 1.7 hardeners again. 40% and all the plus.
Put shield hardeners back to 1.7 levels and watch the outcry.
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
291
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Posted - 2015.04.09 19:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's not even the tanks themselves... It's the hardeners... That's so easy to fix man..
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
294
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Posted - 2015.04.10 23:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:It's not even the tanks themselves... It's the hardeners... That's so easy to fix man.. Its hardeners combined with passive heavy repair modules. The hardeners boost the EHP of the tank quite a bit (x4 for double hardener I think?) which has the side effect of magnifying repair module strength by the same amount, this ends up allowing you to outrep a ludicrous amount of damage just by flipping a switch. This isnt a problem in the gunnlogi since the reps can generally be stopped by damage, but on the madruger the reps just keep going regardless, which results in massive imbalance.
Mmhm! I'll do a bit of math here, I'll show my work.
I'll use something I'm familiar with, Incubi.
2362 aHP (base)
187.5 aHP/s (twin comp light)
Complex aHardener
aHardener on-->
/* if damage is reduced by 40% , H-aHP (hardened armor hit points) is increased by 40% in theory. */
H-aHP = 2362 * 1.4
H-aHP = 3306.8
/* since the aHP doesn't change when hardened ( as H-aHP != aHP, the total aHP does not change) the repair time is still the same. HOWEVER, due to repair time not changing for H-aHP, repair rate will be directly proportional. */
H-aHP/s = 187.5 * 1.4
H-aHP/s = 262.5
/*Proof that aHP/s == H-aHP/s*/
Time_aHP = 2362 / 187.5
Time_aHP = 12.6 seconds.
Time_H-aHP = 3306.8 / 262.5
Time_H-aHP = 12.6 seconds.
Proportional = (Time_aHP == Time_H-aHP)? True:false
Proportional = true
/*Now that that's proven, let's go see how it does against AV.
Let's say swarms do 1000 aDamage every 3 seconds for simplicity. aHardener on*/
H-aHP -= 1000
H-aHP = 2306.8
/* 1 second passes */
H-aHP += H-aHP/s
H-aHP = 2569.3
/* 2 */
H-aHP = 2831.8
/* 3 */
H-aHP = 3094.3
/* since H-aHP prop aHP */
netDamage = ((3306.8 - 3094.3) * 0.6)
netDamage = 127.5
Upscale for tanks, and you'll see what I mean.
300 aHP/s -> 420 H-aHP/s
Thats just one hardener. Imagine twin hardener? About 560 rep. Assuming penalty pushes resistance to 34%.
Edit: I'll do python for H-sHP, H-sHP/s if you want a complete comparison.
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
296
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Posted - 2015.04.11 00:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
Bosh'tet Plz.
Tali'mancer?
Good choice.
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
303
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Posted - 2015.04.11 16:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:It's not even the tanks themselves... It's the hardeners... That's so easy to fix man.. Its hardeners combined with passive heavy repair modules. The hardeners boost the EHP of the tank quite a bit (x4 for double hardener I think?) which has the side effect of magnifying repair module strength by the same amount, this ends up allowing you to outrep a ludicrous amount of damage just by flipping a switch. This isnt a problem in the gunnlogi since the reps can generally be stopped by damage, but on the madruger the reps just keep going regardless, which results in massive imbalance. Stacking penalties mean double hardeners provide 61% resistance.
Show me how you got 61% i would want to add it to my mathz when I go to 2x H-aHP tank vs 2x H-sHP
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
304
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Posted - 2015.04.11 17:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:
Show me how you got 61% i would want to add it to my mathz when I go to 2x H-aHP tank vs 2x H-sHP
Check out the Stacking Penalty Calculator and type in -40, -40 into the calculator. You end up with 60.86% reduction, which rounds to 61% resistance.
Hmm... We have a little issue...
If I do my method of boosting HP by 40% for H-xHP rather than reducing xDamage by 40%, the numbers are different.
I got this using my method
"Individual bonuses: 40.00%, 34.76%, Total bonus: 88.67%
/* multiplying base xHP by 1.4 to show the reduction in damage relating to xHP/s */ "
But by saying it reduces xDamage, i get this:
"Individual bonuses: -40.00%, -34.76%, Total bonus: -60.86%
/* reducing incoming damage by 0.6 to show reduction in damage based on resistance */
Hmm... Am i wrong with how I'm looking at it?
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
308
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Posted - 2015.04.12 03:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:It's not even the tanks themselves... It's the hardeners... That's so easy to fix man.. Its hardeners combined with passive heavy repair modules. The hardeners boost the EHP of the tank quite a bit (x4 for double hardener I think?) which has the side effect of magnifying repair module strength by the same amount, this ends up allowing you to outrep a ludicrous amount of damage just by flipping a switch. This isnt a problem in the gunnlogi since the reps can generally be stopped by damage, but on the madruger the reps just keep going regardless, which results in massive imbalance. Stacking penalties mean double hardeners provide 61% resistance. How is 40% + (40 x 0.87) = 61% the second hardener only loses about 4% effectiveness. Looks like 74.8 when I math it out, but I dont know if thats the correct formula
Use this http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalties and put in -40 twice.
I was surprised! But that's what the calculator put out. Individual bonuses: -40.00%, -34.76%, Total bonus: -60.86%
But put 40 twice you get
Individual bonuses: 40.00%, 34.76%, Total bonus: 88.67%
So... I feel where everyone is about stacking penalties
Why am unsure?
Take a calass Ck. 0. Put two complex regs... Remember that number
put two complex regs and one basic reg. It INCREASES the delay.
0.0 and so stacking penalties is unsure to me
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
309
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Posted - 2015.04.12 16:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Doc DDD wrote:Gunlogis are garbage now compared to madrugars.
Anyone that says otherwise is sitting in the redline (where madrugars would still do the job better).
Gunlogis need a buff.
Give shields 1.7 hardeners and it's fair :/
Cause that's what it looks like we should do... Knowing aHardeners are back to 1.7 level :/
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
310
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Posted - 2015.04.12 16:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Random1628 wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:Use this http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Stacking_Penalties and put in -40 twice. I was surprised! But that's what the calculator put out. Individual bonuses: -40.00%, -34.76%, Total bonus: -60.86% But put 40 twice you get Individual bonuses: 40.00%, 34.76%, Total bonus: 88.67% So... I feel where everyone is about stacking penalties Why am unsure? Take a calass Ck. 0. Put two complex regs... Remember that number put two complex regs and one basic reg. It INCREASES the delay. 0.0 and so stacking penalties is unsure to me I think the way it works is that with hardeners it affects the remaining unhardened HP so that would mean that the 34% is affecting the 60% unhardened HP. It probably this way so that it's impossible to get 100% hardened.
You can 100% harden (effectively doubling xHP) with triple hardening.
But i know you mean damage reduction... Which it is impossible to attenuate 100% of the damage
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
311
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Posted - 2015.04.13 03:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
JARREL THOMAS wrote:
But really, why don't you guys just wait for the hardeners to go down? I mean it's simple enough were not doing damage why continue shooting at it?
True; but, 45 seconds is a likkle too long to wait...
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
312
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Posted - 2015.04.13 03:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote:I'm not a tanker, but I'm confused as to why people believe 1 Aver should be able to pop a 1.3 mil Isk tank with hardeners on...Is that vehicle suppose to be a battle tank or a firecracker?
I mean Dukey, I understand what you are saying about Shield Tankers. Gunlogis do need a buff...but your Heavy analogy makes little sense to me because a Sentinel suit does not cost 1.3 million isk. My isk invested should equal increase slaying capacity. This is why proto costs more than advanced. By that logic, fielding a 1 million isk asset should be able to at least clear out one proto Aver when hardened.
You Shield Tankers work out how to Buff Gunnlogis, but do not Nerf the Madrugar. Make it to where both kick some serious arse, not give free 150 WPs.
07
Alright quick rephrase:
"it's fine that aHardeners are back to 1.7 levels? Yes or no."
"if you are fine with aHardeners going to 1.7, then campaign for sHardeners to go back to 1.7"
But isn't that essentially undoing 1.8 with a twist on tanks eHP?
"huh @.@"
*rephrasing the accusations against armor vehicles, not your post itself*
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
312
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Posted - 2015.04.13 10:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:I'm not a tanker, but I'm confused as to why people believe 1 Aver should be able to pop a 1.3 mil Isk tank with hardeners on...Is that vehicle suppose to be a battle tank or a firecracker?
I mean Dukey, I understand what you are saying about Shield Tankers. Gunlogis do need a buff...but your Heavy analogy makes little sense to me because a Sentinel suit does not cost 1.3 million isk. My isk invested should equal increase slaying capacity. This is why proto costs more than advanced. By that logic, fielding a 1 million isk asset should be able to at least clear out one proto Aver when hardened.
You Shield Tankers work out how to Buff Gunnlogis, but do not Nerf the Madrugar. Make it to where both kick some serious arse, not give free 150 WPs.
07 Alright quick rephrase: "it's fine that aHardeners are back to 1.7 levels? Yes or no." "if you are fine with aHardeners going to 1.7, then campaign for sHardeners to go back to 1.7" But isn't that essentially undoing 1.8 with a twist on tanks eHP? "huh @.@" *rephrasing the accusations against armor vehicles, not your post itself* Undoing 1.8? No, it's doing everything vehicle-oriented in Echo. You nerf hardeners, you bring tanks back to where they were in 1.8. Nerfing hardeners is bringing back 1.8. I don't think I can it say it any more ways than that.
So, are you okay w/ aHardeners being better than sHardeners? Echo sHardeners vs 1.7 aHardeners.
Now you see why we are complaining?
I say go back to 35/40 or 30/40 if 35 is too much. Better than 25% and not a complete "nerf" to vehicles... Its just balancing the hardeners.
Yes 1.8 aHardeners was ugh. But 1.7 aHardeners is "lolololol" for 36-45 seconds
Now that we found 2 absolutes, lets just go 50/50 (i know it contradicts what I just said)
40-25 = 15
15/2 = 7.5
25+7.5 = new aHardener. If its too little, and 1 or 2% too much take away 1 or 2%
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
314
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Posted - 2015.04.13 14:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:I'm not a tanker, but I'm confused as to why people believe 1 Aver should be able to pop a 1.3 mil Isk tank with hardeners on...Is that vehicle suppose to be a battle tank or a firecracker?
I mean Dukey, I understand what you are saying about Shield Tankers. Gunlogis do need a buff...but your Heavy analogy makes little sense to me because a Sentinel suit does not cost 1.3 million isk. My isk invested should equal increase slaying capacity. This is why proto costs more than advanced. By that logic, fielding a 1 million isk asset should be able to at least clear out one proto Aver when hardened.
You Shield Tankers work out how to Buff Gunnlogis, but do not Nerf the Madrugar. Make it to where both kick some serious arse, not give free 150 WPs.
07 Alright quick rephrase: "it's fine that aHardeners are back to 1.7 levels? Yes or no." "if you are fine with aHardeners going to 1.7, then campaign for sHardeners to go back to 1.7" But isn't that essentially undoing 1.8 with a twist on tanks eHP? "huh @.@" *rephrasing the accusations against armor vehicles, not your post itself* Hardeners should not go back to 1.7 levels, however I missed the first month of 1.7 due to internet issues. All I'm saying is the hardeners should be strong enough to be a primary defense vs AV in a proto tank. Isk assets should be worth their investment. So either slightly nerf armor hardeners, and then give DHAVS a bonus to them (True Stand and Deliver Tanks), or buff the shield hardeners to 35%. I don't have the numbers to accurately say. I agree, tanking should require "skill" as the people call it these days, but also keep in mind that a tank is a force multiplier. It is SUPPOSE to require multiple people to take down, thus allowing ground infantry to more easily deal with hostiles who aren't AV. I have no qualms with current tanks, as I prefer the fun of getting a squad of friends and just hunting them down with Lavs all day lol. I hate free give-mes, so sure, make the tanks tough. 07
Shield hardeners are at 40%, 35% would be a nerf.
501, you say they (aHardeners) shouldnt be at 1.7, but thats EXACTLY what you are defending... Not being rude, just pointing that out.
I think DHAVs should just have crazy eHP capability.
But before that, PILOT SUITS AND LINK MODULES. it could do so much...
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
Rise Of Legion.
315
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Posted - 2015.04.13 14:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:I'm not a tanker, but I'm confused as to why people believe 1 Aver should be able to pop a 1.3 mil Isk tank with hardeners on...Is that vehicle suppose to be a battle tank or a firecracker?
I mean Dukey, I understand what you are saying about Shield Tankers. Gunlogis do need a buff...but your Heavy analogy makes little sense to me because a Sentinel suit does not cost 1.3 million isk. My isk invested should equal increase slaying capacity. This is why proto costs more than advanced. By that logic, fielding a 1 million isk asset should be able to at least clear out one proto Aver when hardened.
You Shield Tankers work out how to Buff Gunnlogis, but do not Nerf the Madrugar. Make it to where both kick some serious arse, not give free 150 WPs.
07 Alright quick rephrase: "it's fine that aHardeners are back to 1.7 levels? Yes or no." "if you are fine with aHardeners going to 1.7, then campaign for sHardeners to go back to 1.7" But isn't that essentially undoing 1.8 with a twist on tanks eHP? "huh @.@" *rephrasing the accusations against armor vehicles, not your post itself* Hardeners should not go back to 1.7 levels, however I missed the first month of 1.7 due to internet issues. All I'm saying is the hardeners should be strong enough to be a primary defense vs AV in a proto tank. Isk assets should be worth their investment. So either slightly nerf armor hardeners, and then give DHAVS a bonus to them (True Stand and Deliver Tanks), or buff the shield hardeners to 35%. I don't have the numbers to accurately say. I agree, tanking should require "skill" as the people call it these days, but also keep in mind that a tank is a force multiplier. It is SUPPOSE to require multiple people to take down, thus allowing ground infantry to more easily deal with hostiles who aren't AV. I have no qualms with current tanks, as I prefer the fun of getting a squad of friends and just hunting them down with Lavs all day lol. I hate free give-mes, so sure, make the tanks tough. 07 Shield hardeners are at 40%, 35% would be a nerf. 501, you say they (aHardeners) shouldnt be at 1.7, but thats EXACTLY what you are defending... Not being rude, just pointing that out. I think DHAVs should just have crazy eHP capability. But before that, PILOT SUITS AND LINK MODULES. it could do so much... If by Dhav you mean destroyer HAVs they should not have crazy EHP capabilities, they would be the tanks that find other tanks and murder them. Marauder HAVs would be the high EHP lower damage variety.
Thanks for the correction!
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