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Why don't tanks have any kind of worthwhile endgame?

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Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5627	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:03:00 - [1] - Quote Infantry endgame is taking and holding objectives, which wins the match. Tank endgame is attacking other tanks, while running away from AV. In the case of no AV or enemy tanks, it's shooting at infantry who are not concealed within the loving embrace of a structure, which almost every objective is. So why even field them most of the time? i mean yea, if I feel like being a selfish **** its fun to pull them out and during very specific moments, yea they can have an impact on an infantry engagement (such as bridge map outside pushes). But these moments are few and far between. In pubs, tanks just drive in circles like landsharks attempting to kill anyone who was silly enough to wander outdoors for extended periods of time. And most of the time those people were accomplishing nothing anyway, so you dedicated a player slot to killing someone who was probably worthless. In PC's, tanks nullify other tanks or end up getting used to kill enemy ADS, which could also have been done by a forge. For the pricetag associated with tank you are given power, which is fun for a selfish solo'ists pub mentality but it only applies to outdoor areas and only contributes to actually winning in very situational circumstances. So here's my question. Why can't tanks affect the match in a meaningful way the same way that infantry can? If infantry can hack null cannons, why can't tanks disable them through brute force? Why don't we have turret variants that can damage the MCC directly, making it a viable strategy to press for vehicle superiority instead of infantry superiority? Why call this a dynamic battlefield when the conditions for winning is always a two dimensional tug of war between hacking points and meat grinding clones? Usually banned for being too awesome.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 6044	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:10:00 - [2] - Quote Tanks are already OP, and you want to buff them by making them able to disable null cannons too. o_o Tanks and turrets being able to damage MCCs was around a long time ago, but it was found to be pretty broken, as teams could win solely by controlling turrets and tanks and DPSing down the MCC, rather than bothering with objectives. Also, tanks and turrets now have realistic ranges to contend with, which prevents them from hitting something that far up. I would like to see more for tanks to do in a more artillery role, but that would need destructible map objects, so they could take down barricades and stuff. But tanks should never be self-sufficient without infantry needed to protect them from AV or hack objectives. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5627	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:13:00 - [3] - Quote Tanks can't even hack points how the hell are they OP? Sit inside building with objective, watch as tank does nothing. That's the extent of their usefulness in most fights. Unless the tank gets super aggressive and starts wedging himself in really silly places to try to shoot around corners, they can't do much at all. If thats the extent of their intended design we have a problem. To make this clear I'm asking for tanks to be doing something other than infantry thumping, which I assume is your problem with them. If they have a legitimate role outside of infantry thumping, they don't really have to be so good at it now do they? Usually banned for being too awesome.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 8905	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:15:00 - [4] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Tanks can't even hack points how the hell are they OP? Every game mode can be won by reducing the enemy clone count to zero. HAVs are pretty much a-goddamn-mazing at the wholesale genocide of infantry. Who needs to hack an objective when you can routinely go 25+/0? 4 out of 5 dentists agree that orange is not a sound.
Atlas Donovan The Immortal Order 43	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:16:00 - [5] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Tanks can't even hack points how the hell are they OP? Sit inside building with objective, watch as tank does nothing. That's the extent of their usefulness in most fights. Unless the tank gets super aggressive and starts wedging himself in really silly places to try to shoot around corners, they can't do much at all. If thats the extent of their intended design we have a problem. To make this clear I'm asking for tanks to be doing something other than infantry thumping, which I assume is your problem with them. If they have a legitimate role outside of infantry thumping, they don't really have to be so good at it now do they? This post is riddled with fail.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5627	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:18:00 - [6] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Tanks can't even hack points how the hell are they OP? Every game mode can be won by reducing the enemy clone count to zero. HAVs are pretty much a-goddamn-mazing at the wholesale genocide of infantry. Who needs to hack an objective when you can routinely go 25+/0? Tanks aren't killing any target inside a building. Objectives are typically inside buildings. If people are stupid thats another issue, but in competitive matches a tank will accomplish nothing on any large socket with one exception being 3 point cargo hub as they can affect B. Usually banned for being too awesome.
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1128	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:22:00 - [7] - Quote They're a force multiplier, as long as there's a tank on the field and it is disrupting the enemy in some form, infantry will have less infantry to fight and thus making contesting points easier. As long as there are competent tankers on the field infantry will have no choice but to work their strategy around avoiding/destroying tanks. The most effective way to curtail tanks is having tanks on each team because it requires less infantry focus on AV, however it is all dependent on the skills of individual tankers. It's actually a very team oriented role even though it seems opposite of it, tanks are effectively bigger heavies with more contesting power. That's a very meaningful role, if a team has enough tank skill to make the enemies primary the dispatch of tanks then the enemies almost always lose. It would be cool if tanks could do stuff like that, but it'd most likely be abused in a very malicious way. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5627	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:24:00 - [8] - Quote Unless the force they are multiplying can enter a building, they are multiplying by zero and are worthless. You know whats funny? Those AV infantry can hack a point. That makes them better. Usually banned for being too awesome.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4958	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:26:00 - [9] - Quote End game is blow up things didn't you get the memo? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1128	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:26:00 - [10] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Unless the force they are multiplying can enter a building, they are multiplying by zero and are worthless. That's a very ignorant statement for someone who has actually been in PC's where 2+ tanks are involved. They're not worthless by any means. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5627	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:28:00 - [11] - Quote I've been in hundreds of PC's and I've never once watched a tank hack a point, or been in a situation where an equal number of AV couldn't have defeated on an equal number of tanks. Usually banned for being too awesome.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 8905	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:29:00 - [12] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Unless the force they are multiplying can enter a building, they are multiplying by zero and are worthless. An HAV can patrol the area surrounding a building. It can prevent effective movement from one point to another. In domination a HAV can act as a kind of giant sentinel; area denial and damage absorption. Himiko Kuronaga wrote: You know whats funny? Those AV infantry can hack a point. That makes them better. Those AV infantry are vulnerable to other infantry because AV weapons have reduced anti-infantry capability. In the case of the swarm launcher and AV grenades, they have zero anti-infantry capability, to be exact. 4 out of 5 dentists agree that orange is not a sound.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5627	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:33:00 - [13] - Quote And anti-infantry infantry are vulnerable to tanks. But the difference here is that AV can kill tanks and shoot back at infantry, even if less effectively. Anti-infantry infantry can't do anything to tanks. And tanks can't do anything to objectives. You could say that AV is kind of awesome across the board, especially if you have a well rounded number of them. Can hack, can support anti-infantry, can kill vehicles... pretty awesome stuff. I recommend running them. Can't do much on their own, but then hey, they can do more than tanks. Usually banned for being too awesome.
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1128	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:34:00 - [14] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I've been in hundreds of PC's and I've never once watched a tank hack a point, or been in a situation where an equal number of AV couldn't have defeated on an equal number of tanks. They don't need to hack points, they've got the dps and tank to stop infantry from hacking a point and potentially weaken the enemy by forcing them to switch to AV. It's not a matter of "Oh they killed me match over" a good tanker continually calls in tanks to prevent the enemy from winning it won't always be effective but it will NEVER be worthless. A tank has way more killing potential than any dropsuit, what more do you need auto locking? GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 8906	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:34:00 - [15] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: You could say that AV is kind of awesome across the board, especially if you have a well rounded number of them. Can hack, can support anti-infantry, can kill vehicles... pretty awesome stuff. I recommend running them. And right about here is when I realized you were trolling. GG 4 out of 5 dentists agree that orange is not a sound.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5627	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:36:00 - [16] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: I've been in hundreds of PC's and I've never once watched a tank hack a point, or been in a situation where an equal number of AV couldn't have defeated on an equal number of tanks. They don't need to hack points, they've got the dps and tank to stop infantry from hacking a point and potentially weaken the enemy by forcing them to switch to AV. It's not a matter of "Oh they killed me match over" a good tanker continually calls in tanks to prevent the enemy from winning it won't always be effective but it will NEVER be worthless. A tank has way more killing potential than any dropsuit, what more do you need auto locking? Except they can't hit 90% of the points in this game. Making them worthless. Usually banned for being too awesome.
LT SHANKS You In The Nutz 5605	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:36:00 - [17] - Quote Tankers can step out of their vehicles and hack shit as well. Who says they can't function as infantry?
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5627	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:39:00 - [18] - Quote LT SHANKS wrote: Tankers can step out of their vehicles and hack shit as well. Who says they can't function as infantry? I'm not asking them to function as infantry. I'm asking them to function as vehicles. Usually banned for being too awesome.
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1128	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:41:00 - [19] - Quote Top Kek GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Sir Dukey G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1985	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:41:00 - [20] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Tanks are already OP, and you want to buff them by making them able to disable null cannons too. o_o Tanks and turrets being able to damage MCCs was around a long time ago, but it was found to be pretty broken, as teams could win solely by controlling turrets and tanks and DPSing down the MCC, rather than bothering with objectives. Also, tanks and turrets now have realistic ranges to contend with, which prevents them from hitting something that far up. I would like to see more for tanks to do in a more artillery role, but that would need destructible map objects, so they could take down barricades and stuff. But tanks should never be self-sufficient without infantry needed to protect them from AV or hack objectives. This time I would agree with you, but I disagree all tanks are OP. Gunnlogi's get two shotted by plasma cannons and destroyed easily but madrugars are indestructible. "Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5635	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:43:00 - [21] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Tanks are already OP, and you want to buff them by making them able to disable null cannons too. o_o Tanks and turrets being able to damage MCCs was around a long time ago, but it was found to be pretty broken, as teams could win solely by controlling turrets and tanks and DPSing down the MCC, rather than bothering with objectives. Also, tanks and turrets now have realistic ranges to contend with, which prevents them from hitting something that far up. I would like to see more for tanks to do in a more artillery role, but that would need destructible map objects, so they could take down barricades and stuff. But tanks should never be self-sufficient without infantry needed to protect them from AV or hack objectives. This time I would agree with you, but I disagree all tanks are OP. Gunnlogi's get two shotted by plasma cannons and destroyed easily but madrugars are indestructible. Again, im not asking for tanks to have ridiculous stats. I'm asking for them to have a point. gustavo acosta wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Except they can't hit 90% of the points in this game. Making them worthless. No matter how you slice it 16 infantry will never be as effective as a team with 2 or more tanks because of how much more power they have, and how much dedication it will take to dispatch them . It's obvious you're not looking for discussion here especially since obvious points that everyone knows have to be pointed out to a vet so I'm leaving. Have fun believing in something that is beyond stupid, like the idiots who believe that dying in the name of religion is a great idea. Really had to find something despicable to reach out for on that last comment, eh? Usually banned for being too awesome.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 23087	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:50:00 - [22] - Quote Despite all this bitching about 'OP tanks' I rarely care if I see them on field. Sometimes they cause me to wander through cover when I otherwise wouldn't, but it's pretty rare for me to get killed by a tank unless it's a random instasplat by a rail at range that I didn't see. Gallente Guide one day i may leave the basement but that day is not today
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5635	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:53:00 - [23] - Quote Thats just it. There's a tank? Ok, I ignore him and wait inside. What threat does he pose to me now? None. The null cannon is still shooting, why do I give a damn how long he sits out there? Usually banned for being too awesome.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 10067	Posted - 2015.04.06 15:54:00 - [24] - Quote I think Himoko's idea is in mind after Madrugars Passive reps are calmed down. Most of the time when people post ideas that are thought you can have to assume that they already that "Obvious point X" has to be reached first before we got to this step. Anywho, I'd welcome a tank that could damage the MCC, have it be a Doomsday type weapon that's single shot and long ass reload time (** recalling and deploying would have to be looked at or a mechanic on the tank to stop it ). So a Giant Null "swarm" Cannon for Caldari - Long lock on time A Giant Plasma Cannon turret] for Gallente - Long travel time and parabolic trajectory A Giant Mortar artillery like turret for Minmatar - Takes no time to fire and set up but Longest Reload time of all weapons. A Giant Electromagnetic laser turret for Amarr - Takes a long time to Charge and cool down but hit's instantly. As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP**
Sparten 269 Horizons' Edge 100	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:07:00 - [25] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: tanks and turrets now have realistic ranges Hah, "realistic ranges".
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1128	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:08:00 - [26] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Top Kek Really had to find something despicable to reach out for on that last comment, eh? You're an idiot, what did you expect? "waah tanks are effectively useless waaaaaahhh there's no compromise tanks are useless waaaaah" I may have taken this thing seriously if you conceded that tanks aren't useless, but lol you're an idiot. No one is against tanks being able to do other things, but to say they're useless is hogwash. Btw I don't know to wwhat you mean, kek is a much better way to write lol. Tanks are fine, don't need anything atm OP isn't playing with a full deck of cards. GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5636	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:17:00 - [27] - Quote You seem angry Gustavo. Please, tell me about your life troubles. I am your friend and I am here to help you through this difficult time. Usually banned for being too awesome.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 23088	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:24:00 - [28] - Quote Aww, he's changing quoted names to make himself feel better. Isn't that cute? Gallente Guide one day i may leave the basement but that day is not today
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 3308	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:33:00 - [29] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Tanks are already OP, and you want to buff them by making them able to disable null cannons too. o_o Tanks and turrets being able to damage MCCs was around a long time ago, but it was found to be pretty broken, as teams could win solely by controlling turrets and tanks and DPSing down the MCC, rather than bothering with objectives. Also, tanks and turrets now have realistic ranges to contend with, which prevents them from hitting something that far up. I would like to see more for tanks to do in a more artillery role, but that would need destructible map objects, so they could take down barricades and stuff. But tanks should never be self-sufficient without infantry needed to protect them from AV or hack objectives. Tanks are not OP in general, I disagree. Shield tanks seem to me as an anti shield PLC user to be UP. Armour tanks seem very strong on the other hand. I would be interested to hear from forge and swarm users to hear their thoughts on armour tanks. In regards to end game, I was thinking more along the lines of what rare items / equipment there may be or end game roles such as gate destruction or some other critical things to destroy such as the engines on the back of an MCC for instance to bring down the shields (just as a wild example). With infantry we do have the 'end game' officer suits, weapons etc... that many of us in the community are really looking forwards to be able to trade once trading comes out. That will make a big difference to the infantry community. I would like to see similar stuff for the tankers too. Infantry and tanks should be a symbiotic relationship, not the poor cousin of the other. I would like to see end game items for tanks like officer hulls and weapons. Vitantur Nothus wrote: Why hide a solution under frothy pile of derpa? SCV Ready!
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1128	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:36:00 - [30] - Quote gustavo acosta wrote: lol lol GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5642	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:43:00 - [31] - Quote Laughing at ones self, aka self degradation is a sign of desiring acceptance at any cost. But you don't have to pay that cost, Gustavo. I will love you forever and always. Tell me where it hurts. Usually banned for being too awesome.
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 1128	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:46:00 - [32] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Laughing at ones self, aka self degradation is a sign of desiring acceptance at any cost. But you don't have to pay that cost, Gustavo. I will love you forever and always. Tell me where it hurts. It's embarassing sempai, no chin chin massage pweese \ hah hah kimochiee sempai ikkuuuuuu GimmeDatSuhWeet isk We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy Rise Of Legion. 3242	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:50:00 - [33] - Quote It all went downhill with the first reply. Not naming names or anything Plasma Cannon :3 Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Shade Lert Rogue Instincts Ashtar Federation 6	Posted - 2015.04.06 16:55:00 - [34] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Tanks are already OP, and you want to buff them by making them able to disable null cannons too. o_o Tanks and turrets being able to damage MCCs was around a long time ago, but it was found to be pretty broken, as teams could win solely by controlling turrets and tanks and DPSing down the MCC, rather than bothering with objectives. Also, tanks and turrets now have realistic ranges to contend with, which prevents them from hitting something that far up. I would like to see more for tanks to do in a more artillery role, but that would need destructible map objects, so they could take down barricades and stuff. But tanks should never be self-sufficient without infantry needed to protect them from AV or hack objectives. TANK ARE OP!! TANKS ARE OP!! I CANT INSTA KILL THEM!! WAAAA!! I GOT KILLED BY A TANK AND CANT KILL IT MYSELF WITH MY POINT AND CLICK SWARMS!! WAAA!! I DON"T RUN WITH A SQD SO I NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO IT MYSELF!! WAAA!! explain to me how tanks are op? id love to have a actual conversation with a ccp guys about how tanks are "op", seeing how i dont think a ccp mate is gonna complain as much as they are going to list facts, which is what i like to see. not joking either, lets sit down and have this conversation. I think tanks are good where they are. What do you think needs to be done to make then not "op" as you call them? All suits proto at one time or another, respec #23 Vics MAXED Alts-Ass. AK.0/Sent Mk.0/Comm. Gk.0,Mk.0 Ish AFG=NP
Black Eagle495 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2015.04.06 17:35:00 - [35] - Quote Well tanks did use to have a role other thank killing things. It was to take on structures. Back in mordu's we had skrim 1.0 we had these things called defense relays which prevented the attacking team from advancing on the main base where their MCC would dock. These could be destroyed by hacking it, using RE's, or large Turrets. Turrets were also better positioned and much more deadly to infantry than they are now making them more necessary to deal with. There were also a lot more structures planed but.... well you know. Yes these things could be handled by infantry but having a tank made things much easier. So to answer your question seriously, it's because we don't have enough structures, attacker/defender game modes, turrets that are well positioned and deadly to all, and of course skrim 1.0 . Seriously a lot of things that don't make sense now made a lot of sense with skirm 1.0 it needs to return.


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"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.

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